Why Earned Media is More Important Than Ever During a Pandemic [Valerie Christopherson Interview]

Believe it or not in crisis, there is opportunity. Today we're going to talk about all the opportunities there are for your business to take advantage of, to gain free earned media, and to be heard, and seen as an authoritative resource during these uncertain times. Stay tuned for the details. This is the maximize your social influence podcast with Neal Schaffer, where I help sales and marketing professionals, entrepreneurs and small business owners, build, leverage and monetize their influence in digital and social media. Alright, everybody, today we have a special guest Valerie Kristofferson, who is the CEO, and I believe founder and she'll correct me if I'm wrong, global results, communications. They are a PR agency that is actually based right here in Orange County where I live, but obviously they are global in scale. Valerie, why don't you? Well, first of all, welcome to the podcast. And please introduce your firm and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me today, Neil, much appreciated. Global results, communications was founded 15 years ago, we're actually in our 15th year anniversary. And we were founded on the premise of focusing on mobile communications when your pre iPhone, but we were still, you know, pretty advanced in in bringing at least mobile, mobile internet services to market. The agency has, you know, we're headquartered here in Orange County, but we have affiliations and our team members in Europe, Asia, Latin America, as well as in the Middle East. We specialize in technology, all aspects of it. And of course, as everybody in technology knows, we tend to be the connective tissue to a variety of different industries, whether that be automotive, healthcare, education, government, even Hollywood and entertainment. So GRC on a whole is, you know, we've got clients from all the way from Verizon, all the way through your startups that are just looking to emerge.

Awesome. So for those of you that are listening, we you know, that we generally cover digital social media marketing, we talk about influencer marketing, you know, earned media is what we're going to talk about today. And I think for those of you that have been in this space a long time, you'll know that social media, for many companies really started in the public relations department. And when I talk about influencer marketing, it comes down to influencer relations. And I believe that that is also a skill that is probably better suited for PR professionals because it is a one to one, versus a one to many approach that a lot of marketers talk about and and before we started, Valerie and I were talking about how or media has become really relevant recently with COVID-19. And I personally experienced that I was actually working with a publicist for the release of my new book, The Age of influence, which came out March 17, two days before California went on lockdown. And as she was reaching out to the media, you basically if you did not have anything related to COVID-19, and you were going to get zero coverage. On the other hand, if you had something related to COVID-19. And since then, I think all of us have been able to tell a story relating to that, that we tell our customers, right. But at that time, I didn't have any story to tell. So that to me was a reminder of that power of our media that God I know that you've seen a lot of since its emergence. So why don't we just start with the background of where we're at today, because I don't think we're going to be out of this pandemic. I just had viven toss from ACE program from New Zealand on this podcast. And they're, they're completely out of lockdown, living like normal down there. But for many reasons, the United States, I think we're still going to be in this for a while. So with this new reality, tell us what changes you've seen with earned media that all of our listeners need to be aware

of? Sure, absolutely. So when we take just a quick look back at the last year, going back into 2019, we saw an emergence of paid paid media, coming from a PR standpoint be a little bit more prevalent than what we historically have been used to. And the reason for that is we saw the emergence of storytelling, right content is king has been around since the 90s. But it emerged into a storytelling Brown over the last couple of years, advancing into 2020, even pre pandemic, we started to see companies really want to get their stories out yes, in a brand journalism type of way, but at the same time, not really going for the paid media because they wanted that third party endorsement back they wanted a level of credibility, then you move into the pandemic and you know, that was something that none of us would have would have even imagined we'd be wearing masks and and in the situation that we all are in in today and it varies it varies state by state and county by county as to the level of degrees. It's affecting you but the reality is As a PR professional, we've gotten back to providing facts and reporters, depending on PR professionals more so now than ever, especially in technology, and in health care to report the facts, what are we seeing? What are we doing? How do you go to a remote work environment? What sort of internet connections? Are we going to see what sort of Google Classroom type requirements are there going to be? And we saw companies large and small, really band together, and wanting to tell the story from a factual standpoint, and not necessarily from the storybook point of view. So, you know, we also saw in the last couple of a couple of months, the media get hit hard, and numerous layoffs. And through those layoffs, we're seeing the emergence of some new publications like what Jessica, listen, for example, is doing over the information. She's gaining more and more notoriety, not only because she's a former Wall Street Journal reporter, but because her editorial has gone back to reporting very much like in the late 90s, early 2000s, where, you know, we're going back to fact checking, and we're really trying to try to get back to the facts. And so when you take a look at our media, and I'm and I'm not saying storytelling isn't factual, but it has the word story in front of it for a reason. And right now, we're just seeing such an emergence of people wanting to, to pontificate in a in a more cohesive business manner than what we saw in 2018, and 2019.

So for those business owners, entrepreneurs that are listening, if they want to leverage this power, or media, the first thing they need to do is for today, is really give their perspective, a factual perspective on how they see this pandemic affecting their services, their customers, their industry, would that be the type of media that you think is in demand right now?

Absolutely. And really, what reporters are looking for is how is this pandemic affecting the financials? And this is what I mean, by getting back to some factual data points, what you know, there's right now the big talk today, of course, is tic tock will be allowed to continue in the in the United States. So the headline, really, you know, if I was representing tick tock, which I do not, but if I were, in full disclosure, if I was, you know, part of the headlines that I would be prepared for tomorrow from a crisis standpoint is, you know, is tick tock revenue at risk, you know, and what does that mean for the shareholders, etc. And so So, you know, taking a look at what we're what we're dealing with, from an earned media perspective, it really comes down to talking about the marketplace, the financials associated with that marketplace, what level of degree does it affect people as an individual, because businesses become very personal. I mean, we're sitting here in our homes with, you know, women with makeup, women without makeup, and sometimes there might be a kid floating by you, or whatever it may be. So when they you know, the old saying of it's, it's not personal, it's business, that's just just gone out the window in the last 10 weeks, it is personal. And so there is looking for authenticity in the, in the tone of what you're delivering the message, as well as, as, again, reporters really looking for those factoids that they can add to the stories because the COVID story is become everybody has a COVID story today, you know, we're three and a half months into it. Reporters have been reporting on it daily, if not hourly, and now they're really looking for what is that relaunch regrow three opening? What does that mean, from a knowledge consumer standpoint, but a business standpoint, on the consumer side, it's about the store, it's about the lifestyle. On the business side, it really does come down to the financials.

So based on that of the the type of content that's in demand right now, and the opportunities there are for businesses to be heard, what do you recommend are the vehicles in which companies can be heard? Is it obviously reaching out and developing relationships with reporters of these news organizations like your firm, obviously, as is the shortcut, but for those that don't have the relationships, and that may not be working with an agency? What What advice do you give them as far as Do you publish out in the form of a press release in the form of a blog post promoting social media? What are some of the steps that you would recommend? And it's

all it's all three of what you mentioned, taking a look at the traditional style press release, and you know, laying it out in that format however, today, it's important that right up front, you put your key takeaway so you're seeing more and more press releases come out where you still have the such and such today announced, but above that, rather than the sub headline, you have three quick bullet points, so I'm a broadcast reporter, I can quickly pick up on it. If I'm in a social media world, I can literally just cut and paste and use that as my tweet. Or, you know, you can, you can combine all three bullet points, the three key takeaways, and make that your LinkedIn, your LinkedIn posting for the day, it's really important that you think through the different mechanisms, because people are on the go, they're looking at their phones, they're listening to things like what we're doing right now in terms of podcasts, and making sure that you have some actionable item to a press release on social media. It's quick, it's to the point, and it should have some level of thought provoking in a positive manner, some level of thought provoking mechanisms so that when somebody walks away they go, you know, did they really just say that? And what does that mean? Because that will entice a reporter to want to direct message you back or pick up the phone and call and say, I know, I read that tweet, but what does that really mean? And then taking a look at your own blog channels, you know, as you know, Neela from being a guest on our own PR 360 podcast that we produce, it's, you know, it's it's using that mechanism combined with traditional blogs and making them quick and simple. Blogs, you know, it started to get in that 800 to 1200 word, we're bringing them back to about 200 to 300 words, sometimes even less, a while.

And do you find that the reason behind that is just to get to the point so that it becomes more reportable. Even though just from an SEO perspective, they usually recommend a longer word count, you know, more value

is in pre pandemic, you know that 800 to 1200 word people were taking the time to really read through the lengthier articles, and content that's being produced today is probably better than ever before, where there's such a demand on PR professionals and marketers to up their level of what we call executive level writing today. However, in the pandemic world, because there is, you know, children running around or life happening in the middle of our business day, the luxury of being able to take 10 to 15, maybe 20 minutes to read an 800 word article just isn't there. I anticipate with you know, no hesitation that it will come back. And that we will see the long form come back. But right now being realistic. If if you can't read it in three minutes, I'm not sure it's getting read in its entirety, which is why I go back to that key takeaway. There should be an action even if the action item is simply let me think about that. What did they mean, there should be some level of intelligent provoking when when somebody walks away from from what you're reading, and reporters are looking for that. I mean, because of the volume of editorial outlets out there, in the synergies between industries, I mentioned we do a lot in technology. But we've also done a lot in healthcare as a result of technology. And what has happened is now all the sudden, you know, the healthcare publications are asking us technical questions, because the two industries are bleeding together. So it's critically important that when you're pitching your stories for from an earned media perspective, that you are are taking into consideration your audience and their audience's audience because these are just being read. So you're finding CIOs of healthcare companies reading publications like RCR wireless, and that just wouldn't have happened pre pandemic.

So what about you know, comparing all the different vehicles we use, say whatever story you want to pitch, if you're going to write a blog post about it, you should also have a press release, would that be a recommendation? Or do you say press releases for more strategic pitches? Or how do you balance the two today,

I would use the press release for what it was meant and designed to be in that would be for news. And news being hard news, I would use blogs for the more modern, you know, 2020 version of the storytelling and getting your content out. And then whether you're writing a blog or writing a press release, I would definitely keep in mind that as you're pitching the story and or news out to a reporter that it's not a one size fit all that going into cision and doing a mass blast email just isn't gonna work today. CNN does not want to hear what Fox is saying Fox does not want to, you know, report the same words that CNN is saying or The Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, but it's a very competitive advertising market right now for the editorial community. So you really should keep in mind that their business too. And as a PR professional, you kind of owe it to them to give them a story that you need for their audience.

Gotcha. And I think that just once again, from the release of my own book, that there's still a lot of people that think that press releases aren't read anymore, but you would argue that they still are but it's more and more important to cut through the noise and really have clear takeaways, but also something newsworthy, and that's really the issue, right?

I would agree that the volume of press releases has definitely gone down and That's okay. Where where the value of the press release comes in, again, is goes back to the true purpose of what a press release is. And that should be news. So I would argue that in the last eight to 10 weeks, if you take a look at press releases, they really are news oriented. And so so you're not seeing, you're not seeing the volume to the degree that you were, but you're seeing a better quality. Yeah, and

I was just gonna say that I actually got picked up by the Associated Press, because of my press release. And that's all it takes is one little victory, to see that ROI. For those of you listening that may think that press releases aren't important anymore, they still are being picked up. Based on everything we've talked about. There are some companies out there, maybe you've seen it in the industry that you cover as well that when the Coronavirus pandemic hit, they just didn't know what to say. And they just stopped communicating. And my advice has been saying that, you know, businesses need to serve society, and they need to serve their customer base, they need to keep communicating. And they need to be there alongside their customers and help them out in any way they can. What would be your advice for, you know, above and beyond sort of the press release, or just general sort of corporate communications? What would be your advice, just in terms of communicating today, even during this pandemic?

Absolutely. It was critically important. And, you know, if there ever was a challenging time for PR professionals on a whole, regardless of what industry we specialized in, it was this pandemic, I don't know that most people have lived through something quite like this from a PR standpoint. And you know, everything from having to go into internal communications and making sure that your team and your staff was able to go to a remote working situation, or in some cases, unfortunately, a furlough situation, and how that was handled on not only a professional level, but there's a lot of emotions associated with what was going on. And nobody knew March 17, march 18. Nobody knew March 16, we're in the office. Yeah, we heard some buzz, we heard some rumblings. And then boom, we're told at five o'clock, we're not going to be back in the office the next day. So the dependency on the corporate communications team was stronger than ever, not only to communicate to your employees, the team base but also to talk to our customers to reinsure that you were still going to be in business, then the name of the firm is global results. So taking it from a global perspective, and what was happening even with, with our Asia counterparts, folks that are in China, what does that mean, a lot of manufacturing for a lot of our clients was happening in that part of the world. And does that mean, if you ship a product to me, I'm going to get it, you know, and the facts just weren't there. And the best thing to do in a moment like that, is communicate consistently, calmly, and collectively, on an hour by hour basis. I mean, you know, those that were in the healthcare industry, were reporting numbers, you know, one death to death, three, three cases, four cases, and they had to keep it consistently. So you couldn't make promises or guarantees about maybe the next hour, let alone the next day. But if you've made that known, I know, with our clients, and even with our own team at GRC, we all agreed, we're going to stay in touch, we're going to be completely transparent, and say, This is the status of the business. This is what we're doing with the clients. And this is what we need to get through it. And then day by day, as we learn, you continue to keep that same level of of communication with your audiences, your audiences, your customers, your team. And then you know, the vehicles being internal communications and external communications. So So from my point of view, it was more critical than ever, to over communicate what it is that you did know, and just be transparent. It was like one of the first times in history that a VR person could say, honestly, I don't know. But we're going to figure it out. And we're going to get through it. And we're going to take it as it comes. And we're gonna make sure that our customers customers remain intact.

Alright, so for those that are listening, and wondering, you know, before we began this interview, you know, some of the things you were talking about people working remote, anxiously waiting for positive news. We've seen this increase in media consumption, because we're all home. And we all have time. We're all in front of our computers, you know, outside of everything we talked about what other advice based on you know, this the, what we're in today, can businesses do to take advantage of the situation?

That you know, it's the pandemic has definitely increased the level of intelligence and knowledge in terms of people self educating themselves, because we're not taking the time to be on airplanes and traveling and the social the social side of our lives has somewhat dwindled and turned into online and more conversations that we wouldn't traditionally have. So the advice taking a look forward is to continue to you know, do your research. Have your question and make sure that you're you're following the following the powers that being but questioning that along the way, as well. And at the end of the day, I think we're coming out of this a lot more intelligent. And I don't mean that in a, that we weren't intelligent before the pandemic, is just there's been a lot more self education going on over the last few weeks, and people are making decisions on a personal level that is affecting their business, whether to come into the office, whether or not to come into the office, whether we've got to homeschool our kids, or whether we're going to send our kids back to school in the fall in these, these decisions are heavy lifting. And so I encourage all people to really, you know, use use the voices that they have, and communicate and share your stories, because together, we're going to learn much quicker and faster.

And I have seen a shift, and it's something I've recommended as well, just from a marketing side in terms of content, to customer education, of creating content, while they're at home of educating them and being the source of education. Would you agree that outside of obviously, that the newsworthy things that you can talk about, you know, specific to Coronavirus, there's this whole other sort of education type of content that you can be publishing to gain a better mind share of when people do research, they find your company,

absolutely, people have become a lot more savvy, in in terms of their, you know, the use of the internet, the use of the tools, the use of social media, and even talking to influencers and really paying attention to what the influencers are saying, and making decisions based on those that they find credible. Everybody has their own point of view as to who's credible and who's not. But once you identify yourself, as somebody who has, you know, who kind of mirrors your your, your belief system, you're able to make intelligent decisions. It's you know, from, from a company point of view, we saw some of the world's largest companies banding together and doing programs, we saw movie stars, we saw athletes coming together to really help educate and or provide a platform for people to speak freely on whether that was things like small business Mondays, you know, webinars, and you're seeing the emergence of a lot more entrepreneurs. And I find that to be really, really great. I mean, you know, large companies sometimes get to get the, you know, stagnant or stigma of being legacy or old. The reality is they're not, they're still innovators, they're still moving things. And if it wasn't for large companies, I'm not sure that the world would have kept ticking to the degree that it did, and continues to, but at the same time, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that are taking that chance that they otherwise wouldn't have.

So since we're on, and I know this wasn't part of the script, I was actually asked this in a podcast myself in the middle of it, and I had to come up with an answer for the first time we, we had a little bit of historical perspective here. But, you know, we began talking about how COVID-19 has affected things, What effects do you think that black lives matter? And everything that's happened since then has on the PR industry, and just what everybody listening should be aware of, as well. When it comes down to content and or media,

when it comes to diversity and inclusion that, you know, it's unfortunate it takes it takes a tragedy to to put forth the conversation. I know myself at GRC, we've always been diverse matter of fact, we have a yearly potluck, and our one for 2019 was all about international foods and bringing together the team we had, I think 12 or 13 Different countries represented. And it was really neat to have that conversation a year ago, advancing into today, it is, you know, Black Lives Matters, as well as, as well as all, you know, social causes around diversity and inclusion is critically important to keep in mind. And you know, it as you go through history and you go through work, you know, you you go through ups and downs where we're topics like this become at the forefront, and then you get busy and then they come back and then you know, and I think that if nothing else, what the most recent movement is is bringing forth is that we've got to do more, right, we've got to do more, we can always do more. And we need to keep the conversation alive. And there's a different point of views on that. And from a public relations standpoint, I think we owe it to society to make sure that that conversation on all sides of it continues to get heard and continues to to be at the forefront of a thought and the thought process we went through not too long ago, the me to movement, right. And so I've always been of the belief that you know, during the meaty movement before and after it, that men and women you know, I got asked not too long ago in a different interview. What do you tell your male colleagues versus your female colleagues? My response is the same thing to me. You know, there is no difference. And when we when we get to a point when we don't have to ask these questions, then we know we've reached a little The quality,

right and you know, it's funny, just from a personal note, I, I'm in the midst of revising it, but I wrote this blog post about the best marketing books. And it was when I was released in the age of influence, and, and I had a few people on Twitter call me out, say, Neil 90% of the authors are white male authors. And they were right, right. And it's not because yes, I want to support my friends. And a lot of my friends happen to be white males. But I doing that I'm not allowing others that should be heard that have the same quality content, they do not have the same ability to be heard, by me prolonging that. So to me, it's become another lens in which to look at all the content that I produce. And when I talk with with clients as well, is what is the message that you're saying with that content, it's just, it's thinking about things a little bit deeper. And really giving every side an opportunity to participate is the way that I've sort of internalized in what I do it once you realize that it becomes a very powerful way. And I think if a lot of people thought about it that way, there becomes a lot more equal opportunities. You know, I in college, I was originally an art history major. And I went to this this school called Amherst College who had a sister program at Smith College, which is one of the the feminist college in the country. And so I took a class on feminism and art history there. And they were talking about all the amazing female artists, even during the Renaissance, that just did not, they never got covered. And now we're going back in history and finding them and bringing them to light of the of the geniuses that they were. And to me, that's sort of an example of read, looking at things and finding hidden gems, and giving everybody that equal opportunity. And once we publish content, we're part of the media, and we sort of have a responsibility. Right? Right. So that was sort of alert just being totally open. That was sort of a learning lesson for me. I don't remember this huge enterprise where it might have gone, it might have turned into like a PR crisis. But how do you recommend, you know, people that are listening that might not have a diverse upbringing, or they don't live in a as diverse of a culture as we have in Orange County? What would you recommend to them just from that, that PR perspective of how they look at their content in terms of diversity and inclusion? Any any recommendations? Yeah, I

would say go find it, you know, we based on where you're at demographically, there is going to be different levels of you know, when we put out a job ad, we're probably going to get a more diverse crowd being in Southern California, than maybe somebody in a state that's not quite as diverse. So my recommendation is we're living in a virtual world today, now is the perfect opportunity to go find it. And, and, you know, it really is upon ourselves to bring forth together people of different of different cultural backgrounds of people have different upbringing, people, different educational backgrounds, because at the end of the day, at least from an agency standpoint, our clients are mixed with people, you know, taking a look at some of our larger clients that have offices spread throughout all of North America, they're very diverse, how could I represent them as a PR professional if I don't have different perspectives, and it really just comes down to treating people fair and being equal, and really just, hopefully, one day being able to remove that level of conversation to where it's just a natural part of what we do. But if you don't have the opportunity to be a part of it, like those of us in Orange County, LA area, go find it, you know, you can do mentorships, where we do a mentorship program with colleges all throughout the country, and we do a workshop with Cal State Fullerton, and we're bringing in together the next generation of kids that kids these results, bringing, bringing them together in a room and hearing the different stories, whether they, you know, we're immigrants from another country or born here, or whatever it may be. And together, these conversations actually put together the power of what's going to make you a better communicator. And And by understanding other people's experiences, and it's okay, if you didn't have it before. Just make sure you haven't moving forward.

Right, I think that, you know, maybe some are listening, thinking it might be irrelevant to what they do. But at the end of the day, there are exceptions around the world. But most countries, at least in the Western world, demographically are becoming more diverse. And therefore at some point, how do I sell into that community? That I'm not a part of right? Do you have employees that are part of that community? Have you ever worked with someone from that community? It does become, you know, there's a lot of reasons why we need to have diversity inclusion, but there's also a business imperative at some point that I believe is going to hit every company, right, that needs to get into it. And it's just a law of numbers in terms of the way immigration and different birth rates and what have you,

right? Absolutely, absolutely. And at the end of the day, it's it's never irrelevant, because we're all people. And that's one thing, regardless of who we are male, female, or, you know where we come from. We're all human beings. And so if you take a look at it from just a macro level and say we're all humans they'll have a heartbeat. And because of that heartbeat and the brains that we have, how do we utilize that and learn what doesn't doesn't matter, color or creed or our background, as much as it matters that we're healing, and everybody brings something to the table may not always be the best fit for your particular company. That's fine. But it doesn't mean that you can't learn from somebody.

Yeah, awesome advice. I'm really glad I threw that out. And, and we had a chance to hear from you on that. Because I know that a lot of people probably thinking that, how do I actually go ahead and and implement that learn more? What do I need to watch out for etc. And I think we covered a lot of those critical issues. So you know, Erminia, during COVID-19 Any other final advice for the listeners before we, before we wrap up today?

You know, I always like to say enjoy the journey. It life is far from boring. It's not though it is absolutely good, regardless of whatever you may or may not be going through. But, you know, we just got to enjoy the journey,

thrive on the pivot. That's what I say. Absolutely.

There's, there's always good and everything that you go through in life.

Awesome. So Valerie, if others want to reach out to you or maybe interested in working with your company, can you let us know how we can find you? And also, I assume that your company doesn't just work with companies in the technology and healthcare industry? So but if there are specific types of companies you work with, please let us know.

Absolutely, the best way to find us is through our website, which is a global results, PR comm we also are available through my email, which is Valerie C at global results, PR comm companies that we work with in you know, in, in technology, various from Telecom, to automotive to health care, we actually do have some company, you're probably familiar with Neil NetSuite who's fish tacos. And so clearly through the pandemic, helping them from a crisis standpoint, and pivot pivoting their business into deliveries and, and things that we've had to do with their 64 Plus restaurants in you know, but our specialty definitely is in the tech sector, we do have a couple of non tech oriented companies, but best way to reach us through that website.

Awesome. And for those of you that don't know, a lot of people have heard of in and out from Southern California, but Oahu was really sort of revolutionize the fish taco, in beach communities with surfers. And that there. It's sort of a legend here in Southern California, that what a great brand to represent.

Absolutely. It's it's never a dull moment we have we have fun. And you know, right now they're really doing a good job on going out there and feeding the first responders and, and the healthcare professionals that have been at the forefront of the pandemic and making sure they're providing food while obviously going through one of the toughest time in restaurant history and making sure that they're able to survive as well.

And you know, it's funny, I don't remember the founders name, but I've seen him speak. We might, yeah, winglet at social media conference, like a decade ago, and he was the one who said we, we made it big on MySpace, and he sort of attributes a lot of their success to MySpace. But he also said something that was really profound. When he was at the top one of the most famous entrepreneurs locally. He said, I'm going to tell I'm going to give you a lot of advice. I'm a teacher a lot, just promise me that you'll remember me when you're above me, or something to that extent, I thought that was just really powerful, and really humble in many ways. And just what a great company. So if you ever I know we're in COVID-19, but if we get out of it, make sure in addition to in and out you try Wahoo fish taco, absolutely, please do. Alright. Well, Valerie, thank you so much for joining us today, I wish you the best of luck. And hopefully our listeners take all this advice to heart. And thank you all for listening to another episode of the maximize your social influence podcast. All right, well, I hope you enjoyed that interview. And it gave you something to think about. I didn't talk about it in the intro. But obviously, the interview went in a few very, very interesting directions. And when we talk about earning media and PR, and I was mentioning it, those are sort of the original influencers. When we publish content, we are also the media. And we also do have responsibility. And that conversation just naturally brought up those areas of being called out in social media for your content. And, you know, I try to learn, I'm a lifelong learner. And I also try to connect the dots to my past. And I think that was a really, really good illustration of me doing that to show you how we are the media. And you know, I've always been a fan for the underdog, whether it's in sports or anywhere in life, and there are people that are underrepresented. And I want to do my best to correct that to do what I can because I have a responsibility to do so. So I hope that didn't take you back when you listen because the conversation did go a completely different direction. But I think it was a really good reminder and I come from you from an authentic, transparent position. That that is sort of my own personal experience and how I am hopefully handling it in the right way. So thanks Thank you so much for listening for being a fan. Hope you enjoyed that interview man. We got a bunch of really, really great interviews. Carla Johnson talking about innovation. Joe Pulizzi. Once again, talking about in crisis was opportunity, but about content, the amazing Jay Baer make sure you hit that subscribe button. I also want to thank specifically, I know that this podcast has been getting a lot of new listens, and I see it in the rankings. So I know that recently, there's been a lot of you, in France, in Ireland, in Japan, in New Zealand, among other countries, that you're helping me rank in the Top 100 Top 50 In terms of marketing podcasts, thank you so much. I'd really appreciate if you would be out a minute to go out of your way, write a review so that it can continue to rank high in your country, but that it can also expose this podcast to other people. So this has provided you value. I really help you do that. Hope you keep subscribing, keep listening. And obviously I'm hoping you're staying safe until we can get through this pandemic together. So wherever you're on the world, make it a great virtual day everybody. Bye bye now.