Networking and fostering meaningful conversations to engage and move people are core skills that every marketing professional, entrepreneur, and business owner should have.
To help us hone in on these skills to begin the new year, I am honored to have my friend and someone who I have a great deal of respect for, Minter Dial, on this episode.
Minter is an elevating professional speaker and consultant on branding, leadership and transformation.
As he prepares to finish writing his new book, Dialogos, Minter shares with us:
- Tools to facilitate conversation
- Ways to meet new people (and network)
- Ways to develop your empathic listening skills
As the pandemic slowly dwindles down and we go back out to working with and meeting more people in real life, this is the perfect episode to ensure we have the right mindset to take advantage of any and every potential networking situation.
[01:54] Introduction of Podcast Guest, Minter Dial
[05:53] Minter As An Elevator
[07:12] How Minter Started His Speaking and Corporate Leadership Career
[11:58] Minter's Books
[13:51] Minter's Secret to Writing Content
[18:03] Books On Substack
[21:56] Recommended Tools in Facilitating A Conversation Approach to Business
[23:49] The Empathy Circle
[27:16] Helping People Find New People
[31:44] Ways to Develop Empathic Listening Skills
[34:36] The Reformulation Piece
[39:47] Connect With Minter
- In the notion of elevation that's important to me, is finding more meaningfulness in whatever we do, whoever you are, in some kind of way.
- The point that I was getting to, especially since I started working on digital, was how much the brand should be represented by the human beings, the employees that are working within the company. And so branding gets personal was really my mantra.
- The first idea is it's really self-awareness, to notice when you're being triggered to notice when you are being overly excited. And in that impulsion, perhaps cutting off people not knowing to listen.
- The second part of it is learning how to listen without judgment. And that means putting aside your own ego, and really trying to understand what the other person is saying. And the goodwill tool here is reformulation.
- I have always thought that I am as strong as my network. But having a strong network doesn't mean having a lot of people. It means having a set of people who can have your back, have complementary skills, and add to your position, if you will not just like minded people, this is what I consider a strong network.
- It's not about having quantity, it's about enjoying the process, listening to stories and not having an agenda.
- Read Minter's Dialogos, Fostering More Meaningful Conversations via Substack https://minter.substack.com
- Minter Dial's Website: https://www.minterdial.com/
- Discover Minter's Books on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3kh59X8 [affiliate]
- Join My Digital First Mastermind: https://nealschaffer.com/membership/
- Learn about My Fractional CMO Consulting Services: https://nealschaffer.com/cmo
- Download My Free Ebooks Here: https://nealschaffer.com/freebies/
- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- All My Podcast Show Notes: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
One of my resolutions for 2023 is to not only meet more people to network with in real life as we come out of this horrendous three year pandemic that we've been in, but also to have more meaningful conversations that engage and move people not just offline, but also online to build a more robust community and to help my clients build more robust online brands. If you're with me, you want to learn how as well you're in for a treat. On today's episode of The your digital marketing coach, podcast, digital social media content, influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, blogging, tick talking LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketing, whew. There's a lot to cover. Whether you're a marketing professional entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neal Schaffer is your your digital digital marketing marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neal Schaffer. Hey, everybody, Neal Schaffer. Here I am your digital marketing coach. Welcome to my podcast. We are all the way up to episode number 301. My last episode, obviously was episode 300. I didn't really make a big deal out of it. It's sort of an annual thing. I'm trying to do 50 episodes a year. So at the beginning of 2024, I should be at episode number 350. But man, I've interviewed some amazing people over the years. And today's guest is no exception. So I should give you a little background as to who Today's guest is. He is no other than Mr. Mentor dial. Yes, like dialing a phone number that is his actual last name. And I was introduced to mentor when I was doing outreach to be a guest on podcasts when I had wrote the age of influence. And hopefully you listened to that episode way back when of how I was a guest on like 100 podcast and 90 days, mentors podcasts was one of them. And being on his podcast gave me the opportunity to really meet him because he is someone who was a branding expert, you know, cmo vice president level international career at L'Oreal. And then he went off to become a consultant and very popular speaker on leadership, branding and transformation. He has also written a few books future proof How to Get Your Business Ready for the next disruption. You lead how being yourself makes you a better leader, Hardy official empathy, putting heart into business and artificial intelligence mentor is one of the most authentic people I've ever met. I recently met him for the first time in person when I was in London, the beginning of November of 2022, to speak at analyticals b2b influencer marketing event. And I was one or two minutes late, I came into the narrow cafe, very famous coffee chain there in in the UK, or at least in London. And there was a gentleman who looked like mentor, but he was talking with a woman next to him that did was not dressed up in the same sort of work attire that mentor was, and I just thought it was very, I don't know, I wasn't sure if it was meant or not. But when I came up to him, and as I sat down the woman, you know, said goodbye to mentor and it was nice talking. And mentor told me that he regularly engages with people, and has very, very interesting and engaging conversations. He's going to talk a lot about that in this episode. But one of the things I want to say about mentor before we get to the interview, is that he is someone just incredible on many levels. But one thing I really admire about him, he has written, you know, four books in the last few years. And when I asked him about how do you write so frequently, my last book, obviously, it's been more than, well, it will be three years in two months. So it's been two years in 10 months. And he writes regularly, every day. Every morning, I forgot the number it was either 1000 words or 2000 words. It is a habit. It's what makes him a better writer. It's what allows him to share more with his community. It also just makes him a better leader and a better person. So I think you'll get the gist out of who mentor is what he's about. And you're going to learn a ton all about meeting people engaging with people, tools that you can use to facilitate conversation. This is one of these core skills, interviews or episodes, that no matter what your interest is, in this podcast, I think you're gonna get a lot out of so without further ado, here's my interview with Minter dial. You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neal Schaffer. mentor dial Welcome to the digital marketing coach podcast.Minter Dial:
Hey, Neil, thanks for having me on.Neal Schaffer:
Mentor, so awesome to have you. I think our relationship started when I was on your podcast shortly after before publishing the age of influence either right around that when COVID started. And then I had a chance to meet you personally in London. Finally, last October, and yeah, just really fascinated, but not just fascinated, but really inspired by what you're doing. I thought I had to have you come on. And I know that my audience is going to get the same inspiration. Mentor, you are co author, speaker, Chief, inspirational officer, chief motivated, you are many things to many people, rather than me describing you, I want to give you a chance. How do you and I know you do a lot of speaking and publishing? How do you best describe, you know, what you do, to audiences that you meet.Minter Dial:
So I like to think of myself as an elevator. The elevator guy who elevates the debate and connects people, dots and ideas. And in the notion of elevation that's important to me, is finding more meaningfulness in whatever we do, whoever you are, in some kind of way.Neal Schaffer:
That's really profound. And I will say, when I was first on your podcast, I felt a little challenged. I felt like you were asking me questions that I don't always get asked. But the challenge was only to seek this greater truth and to elevate the conversation, as you say. So that's a great introduction to obviously you have a history, a corporate history. And now I believe you're mainly author speaker, a prolific writer. So why don't we begin when I met you, just to give a sense of you know, what you do when I met you, you were working on two completely different things, yet they're part of the same mentor dial, doing a lot of speaking with corporate leadership groups, as well as you just had written a book on substack. So why don't we start there? Why don't we start with sort of the speaking and corporate side? Because I'm sure that's sort of the backbone of what has influenced everything else you do? What is it that you used to do? And why did you leave that world?Minter Dial:
So I had a I had a career, Neil, that took me through 12 different professions, in also 12 different industries. So I would say that change is something like my middle name. And not being graded. Anything is also coming with that role, because I touched a lot of things but never been, obviously the chief expert in any one of those I worked in a zoo and aquarium. I worked in an investment bank, I worked as a tennis pro. I started the travel agency for musicians, and luxury leather goods company. And by gum I then worked for after getting an MBA at INSEAD for L'Oreal for 16 years. And the the joke I say to my friends as well, hey, I got an MBA to become a hairdresser. Which isn't exactly true. But I did work in the hairdressing industry for 16 years. And during those 16 years change countries five times. And I ran one company worldwide called red skin. For those who visit frequent hairdressers, nice and good New York style hairdressers, that's the product that they often use. And then I ran Canada for the professional division for nearly four years. And then also the Executive Committee of the group for the professional division worldwide out of Paris. And I had eight functions at that time. So at the end of my corporate career, where I was working in a big group, I kind of felt that I had really learned a lot and I knew a lot. So I and I also felt like I had more to give. So I launched myself, and the big mistake I made me or at the very beginning was thinking that I knew a lot about everything. And it turned out that Google just doesn't like somebody who likes a lot about everything. They like to have the expert on some thing. And anyway, so that was my I got my wings clipped on that and finally landed on this notion of leadership, which I think is probably my my singular, strong point. But I've always wanted to in whatever I do, including the World War Two documentary film and book I wrote, I wanted to find ways to encourage more meaningful discussions and, and a return to some stronger values. And so that's something that's like my backbone, if you will, that runs through everything I tried to do, including today when I'm writing my new book about the oligos meaningful conversations.Neal Schaffer:
Now for some reason, I also pictured you as a branding expert. Well, thereMinter Dial:
is a little bit of branding and when you run I basically I went through the in the L'Oreal world. I went through the marketing channel In terms of career trajectories, so at the beginning, I was doing a lot of product development for different brands like gas stars or Lawhead. Professor none. And and then when I was running redkin, it was largely a directional visual type of position, because the operational countries were the ones that set the local pricing and, and did all the marketing activities. So at some level, I was really the brand guy for redkin. Then I went to Canada, and then I was general manager. But I never left this whole notion of branding. And in fact, one of the things that I took away from my career at L'Oreal was how not to do branding. I really became irritated with the notion that product is the lead article. In the end of the day, a lot of companies have a lot of great products. The point that I was getting to, especially since I started working on digital, was how much the brand should be represented by the human beings, the employees that are working within the company. And so branding gets personal was really my mantra. So if I am a brand guy, and I'm a marketing guy, I really think that there's a whole lot of work to move towards a more employee first customer centricity where the brand is lived and breathed by the CEO. All the way down to the janitor.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, amen. Mentor. I think when I was on your podcast, we talked about this as well. And there's this concept of employee advocacy. But I think really employer branding, and everybody coming together and defining that culture and becoming part of it is something that it's taken brands a long time, but it's a it's a topic when I was in London, that was the hot topic that I spoke about. And I know there's a lot of interest on that. So So Minter, you know, leadership, branding, marketing, but on this other side, you are a prolific writer of content, how many books have you published now?Minter Dial:
So published is for a few, some of them have been translated into other languages. I don't know if that really counts. But I've also written a novel and published. And I'm working on my next one, which hopefully will come out in spring of 2023.Neal Schaffer:
But these have been written in very, very short, relatively short time spans Correct?Minter Dial:
Well, actually, the funny thing, Neil, so the very first book I wrote was the biography of the Second World War. And, and at the same time, I produced the documentary film for PBS. So that took quite a long time, because figuring out how to get a film into distribution, doing all the film festivals, it's, it's a whole Malarkey, which is very different from the book tour side of things, although I did have the book as well. Then, when I had my second book was with Pearson. And so with a publisher, yours a little bit slower, that whole process took 18 months, was 60,000 words. And then the third book, I decided to go with KDP. With Kindle Direct Publishing, which is basically self publishing. I went exclusive on Amazon, and I got that out within nine months from beginning to end. And then the the fourth book was with Kogan page, and that was more like 15 months, plus the time where everyone was furloughed, which added on another six months, because of the pandemic. So that was why that one took longer.Neal Schaffer:
And when I you know, when I met you last, you talked about your new book. And today, before we started this interview, you talked about this next book that you just said, you're publishing in the spring. So there's always a group of authors and people that want to write books that are also listeners this podcast, and I want to share, I want you to share with them what you shared with me, as to your secret for being able to write books, or write a lot of content because you have this daily routine, that that really helps you do this correct? Well, theMinter Dial:
first thing is I, I lent into and crafted what I consider my North Star, which essentially, is not something that just comes to you out of a flash of inspiration, I really had to craft it, work it, think about it, tweak it, and I finally came up with something. And What's lovely about it for me is that I can speak with great freshness and freedom. i It really is the little motor within me. And it allows me to know what I should be doing, why I'm doing what I do and what I shouldn't be doing and know how to say no to certain things. And so if I if I pondered this last book, that's fifth book, I'm trying to get out, I had three ideas. And so the way to decide which idea would work the best or you're most most motivated on was to lean into it and think about which one movies is really corresponding to my North Star. And so that idea that I'm writing for a purpose that is self generated is powerful. The second thing is I'm very disciplined. And so I like to get up. I love that early morning, quiet listen to the chirping of the birds, even if it's dark outside, or nice warm cup of java, and no beings, bangs, notifications anyway, I never have notifications, by the way, but you know, I don't even they don't register, and I can just write away. And whether I'm writing for the book, or for my blog, or for somebody else, I'm basically writing 1000 words, publishing 1000 words a day. So that's sort of been my rhythm for well, now 12 years. And I should add, I was doing the podcasting, which I've been doing for 12 years as well, nearly 13. And that's 600 episodes of that. So the other thing I suppose I could add is about all these things we talk about Neil, is, I would like to believe that I'm somebody who walks the talk, or walks the right anyway, whatever I'm writing, I feel like I've done it, or I'm doing it, which is why I've been practicing podcasting. And, of course, I had my whole career as a, as a genuine executive, as opposed to a consultant who reads about stuff, I really feel like I've lived it, and express it along with all my warts. And then perfections.Neal Schaffer:
Well said, my friend, and I think that it's not just the Hobbit, but it's having that North Star that gets you into that rhythm that keeps guiding you. And I think a lot of people try for the tactical of just writing everyday without that Northstar, in which case, it's sort of probably going to be a wasted effort or short lived effort. So really well said,Minter Dial:
it takes a lot of effort. When you don't have that extra drive. I mean, I get I'm tired, I go out at night, and I can still be tired in the morning. But I still drag my ass out of bed to do the writing because I'm, I feel like alright, this is me, this is it. I you know, I'm responsible to me for it. And I would say the other thing is important in the way I consider writing. I love to write I love the process of researching. I love that early morning feel. And if nobody reads it, Inshallah, as some people will say, I am, you know, just happy as it is. And if somebody does read it and like it, that's a bonus.Neal Schaffer:
That's a great mindset to have. So when I saw you in London, we were talking about then your new book, which was not about descript. So I don't know why that was my head was about substack. And can you before we go on to today's topic, because I think it's going to be a great lead into what you're working on next. Can you please describe your when I first met you, you know, in London, you said you wrote a book about substack. And it sort of seemed very technical and very narrow, focused when I heard that from me. But obviously, it's a lot more than that. So well.Minter Dial:
So to clarify, it wasn't a book about substack. It's a book on substack in that I am writing it, and publishing it weekly on substack. So using the platform and here's what I decided mele, the four books, I've published each one of those been done differently. One was co authored. I've had two different publishers, I did a hybrid publishing and I did a Kindle Direct Publishing, self publishing. So each time was different in process, partnership and results. The last this last version, I decided with the inspiration of Christopher Lochhead to write this one chapter a week, publish it on the Thursday at 5pm. London time generally. And and then I've been doing that now I've just published my 39th chapter. So I feel like there's a it's basically this mixture between a 19th century how Charles Dickens wrote, where he had cereal publishing in the newspaper, once a week of his chapters. And it's a very peculiar feeling, as opposed to taking a segment of time and chunk of time and just popping down the book. Here, I'm writing about it, and I'm constantly thinking about it. And why this is a sort of form and function meeting together is that I'm talking about conversation. And I want to have conversation with the people who are reading as we go along. And that exchange is powerful and meaningful. And it has an impact negatively on how and what I write in the next chapter. And so that it's this really organic piece and I got about 700 subscribers who are participating with me, they don't all participate all the time, especially since on my chapters for like, three 4000 words long, but it's been a really fascinate. Eating process and along the way I've picked up some people who have been so interested in this notion of conversation have been willing to contribute different styles and contexts for conversations that really enrich just my perspective on how to bring meaningful conversations into work life and your personal life. And these are individuals who have really specifically different needs and approaches to conversations such as an indigenous American Native, talking with her ancestors, and how that conversation goes, or a conversation with a hostage taker. When you are a negotiator, how do you manage that? So all sorts of different types of conversations that will hopefully overall inspire us to get back to the table, and engage in those meaningful conversations, even if we disagree with friends and strangers.Neal Schaffer:
It's really fascinating, because what you talk about this notion of Foster, as you know, we start to talk about your next book and about fostering meaningful conversations that engage in move people, that to me, a lot of it is what a lot of marketing is about, or what it should be about these authentic conversations with people, obviously, you're going to be talking about your brand, your product, your value, what have you. But I think we miss out on the conversations. And we tend to make it this one way conversation, which then is not a conversation at all. And although we have this great thing called social media, which we can have two way conversations, it tends to be stuck for many brands in that one way conversation mode. So I'm curious, as our listeners try to consume what we've been talking about, one of the things that in preparation for this interview, you wanted to share work tools to help facilitate conversation, or you are obviously representing yourself. And as people it's a lot easier to, you know, engage brands are at a distinct disadvantage, obviously. But nevertheless, what are some tools that you recommend to help begin to facilitate more of a conversational approach to business?Minter Dial:
Right? Well, there's a nun, let's say tool type of approach, which is really to lean into this idea of listening. And it requires a an element of self awareness. How are you? how able are you in the midst of a conversation to check on your pulse rate? And how excited emotional you might be and how much airtime Is everybody getting you the other or the others, and to have that meta ability. So I think that's the first idea is it's really self awareness, to notice when you're being triggered to notice when you are being overly excited. And in that impulsion, perhaps cutting off people not knowing to listen. The second part of it is learning how to listen without judgment. And that means putting aside your own ego, and really trying to understand what the other person is saying. And the goodwill tool here is reformulation. It's a classic tool in in, sometimes taught in manipulative ways in sales. But in this case, really what it is doing is you reformulate what you're hearing, the other person is saying not in a copycat sort of way, we use the same language of vocabulary. But you reformulate What the What you heard the other person said, irrespective of whether you agree, and without showing that you disagree, or necessarily have to show that you agree. And so that reformulation piece is really important. So the tool that I like to proffer out as a as a way to, let's say, lean in on this idea of active listening is thing called the empathy circle, which is not something I invented, but it's something that I've been doing for Well, nice three or four years and an empathy circle which was developed by my two friends, Edwin Ruch and lead of a music. We're both both I would characterize them as empathy enthusiast if not activists is a process where for two hours, you follow a structured dialogue. And the Structured Dialogue is around a particular question or subject. And everybody listens. One person talks to one single person and that single person's role is to actively reformulate without judgment in front of everybody else, which is an interesting component to this. And then once that person has felt heard and been and given their piece, then the person who's been listening and reformulating it gets to speak chooses that person. So it's a process that takes two hours. And a Neil, the thing that's remarkable about this is that in the first hour, inevitably, there's a lot of masquerading. And you know, we're pushing out the content that I had around the question which I thought about beforehand. What happens in the second hour is that we we really relax, we release. Not only that, we're out of shot wads to shoot because we've, we've done it in the second hour, you're inevitably having to bounce while you inevitably will bounce off what everyone else is saying. Where you are inspired by intrigued by sometimes maybe you can be against or want to interject or clarify. But this means that we're in a co collective or CO constructing type of approach. And at the end of the two hours, because we've given ourselves the time to listen, as your listeners are listening to me wax on about this is that you feel connected to one another in a wholly different way. Because you've listened and you feel heard.Neal Schaffer:
That's almost a tactic that every will tool that every boardroom, every committee, every group should really go that sort of reminds me it's a different analogy here. But you know, being an avid football fan and watching the World Cup that the first half is always a little bit more tense. And but the second half things sort of open up.Minter Dial:
Indeed, same in rugby. Same in rugby, I suppose a lot of sports, where you're the teams are sort of seizing themselves up sizing themselves up. Sorry. Yeah, absolutely. Right.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, that's fascinating. So what about, you know, one of the things that I think a lot of people want to do as we come out of COVID. Regardless, if you're an entrepreneur wanting to partner with new people, or, or you're just a professional wanting to network again, and learning how to socialize again, which I think we almost lost a lot of that skill over the last few years is ways to meet new people in network, what would be, I see you as just this prolific writer and networker. So what would be your advice on helping people find new people?Minter Dial:
So the first point is, I have always thought that I am as strong as my network. But having a strong network doesn't mean having a lot of people. It means having a set of people who can have your back, have complementary skills, and add to your position, if you will not just like minded people, this is what I consider a strong network. And while a lot of people like to run around and connect with everybody who's open to connect, I don't I want to I'd rather connect with people I know and trust. And that's, that's my first point. So even if I know a lot of people, and even if I have a strategy, which I've been developing, well developed maybe 15 years ago, to always meet one new person every day. It's not about having quantity, it's about enjoying the process, listening to stories and not having an agenda. And this manner, I will just, I meet people that you know, be on the bus, it can be I can talk to the bus driver, or I can be on an aeroplane or I can be with a street vendor or whomever, obviously at dinner parties and such. I will I'll start strike up a conversation. And I'll very quickly hope to get into something deeper beyond the banalities Oh, nice weather. It's a little cold today, oh, it's dark soon, or whatever, or did you see the football match? I want to get into something a little bit more profound, where we can connect at a at a deeper, more soulful level. And I'm not afraid to take those risks. Sometimes it obviously doesn't work, because people are pretty good. Don't have time, but that's life. But assuming I do so the technique and tool that I've been using well since two years is lunch club. So right in the middle of the pandemic, I was like oh Minter, you're stuck in home, lock down like everybody else and how you're going to meet people? Well, if there's a will, there's a way. And so other people had thought about this, and there are four or five different techniques that or apps and platforms that came up and lunch club.ai was the one that I got into. And through that I'd have these 40 minute conversations, maybe three of them a week, and I met so many cool people. And the reason why it became coolest because all I was interested in doing was hearing about their story. And and we'd connect through that way and and literally I can say that I have 10 people in my roster today that are specifically thanks To Lunch Club 10 people that I hang out with regularly, thanks to lunch club, otherwise, I would have never met them.Neal Schaffer:
That's fascinating. In all honesty, I've never heard of lunch club. But I still remember meeting you at that cafe in London. And when I arrived, I wasn't sure you were there or not. And then I saw this gentleman who looked like you, who was engaging with the conversation with a woman next to him, and I wasn't sure if it was you or what was going on. And then I realized you were doing exactly what you're talking about here, which is really fascinating. But I see how that also breaks down. Various, you know, scared to start a conversation, or shyness, I can see how that process can really help break that down. I'm really curious this lunch club.ai Because a lot of people went to clubhouse. And I think clubhouse was just the wild west of social networking is lunch club.is. still around today. And it's it's still recommended as a place to meet people.Minter Dial:
Yeah, I want to do so I'll send you kneel the link to get people. So you can just get a like a not a sponsored link. It's just a godfather and type of link, but it's still around and you sign up on the Monday and Tuesday. And then they automatically connect you with people according to the types of interests that you have. And expertise is that you have with other people around the world, or local, if you wish, they've now moved into moving into in real life as well. So it's really I think it's been a great platform, the AI was well done. I very rarely had a miss when I was hooked up with them.Neal Schaffer:
That's fascinating. Thank you for that advice. So we've talked about tools to help facilitate conversation. And I think that you mentioned sort of an approach which is easy to adopt offline, which I think we can translate to online as well talk about ways to meet new people. One of the other things that you wanted to discuss was ways to develop your empathic listening skills. And maybe you already did that when you talked about that two hour process. But I'm wondering, any other advice that you have for us to become better listeners?Minter Dial:
Well, the first part is to understand why you actually want to do that. The observation I have is a lot of people are more interested in talking about themselves. And hence the one way traffic on social media. Hence, the one way traffic when you get into certain conversations as the big mouth goes on and on. And you can't get a word in edgewise. So are you actually interested in listening? And there are certain qualities of people that make them empathically challenged, for example, successful people? Well, I have everything to show everybody, or males, in general mansplaining that's what that is, in no uncertain terms. And what is empathy? Well, empathy is, is a genuine desire to understand what the other person is thinking or feeling. So of course, you can use it for manipulative techniques and marketing. But are you really interested in understanding why somebody is on the polar opposite end of something you believe strongly, because maybe you're not, in which case, you're going to be challenged to listen intently to understand how it is that that person came up with that belief. So at the opposite end of the way you are and who you are. So once you have decided that you actually are interested in it, well, the challenge is getting the data to understand. So that means at some level, getting the trust from the other person to want to share with you their feelings, some vulnerabilities and such. So, data, how do you get the data? Well, one idea would be to start reading more fiction. If you read good fiction, it's amazing how they will develop characters. Even if it's a male writing about women or a woman writing about men, it allows you to explore other types of people, so that when you go into an encounter with somebody who's radically different from you, you have some small elements of some small window into this different side of things, you know, I mean, we start with, you know, male and female, but you can there's so many other different divides, whether it's West Coast, East Coast, north south, black whites, and you know, all the different types of Chinese people there are, you can't just categorize them as one type. So you have to have a more sophisticated database in order to help you parse through and understand and lean into these other cultures that you're doing. And, and the reformulation piece is a really useful one, because a you'll see how badly you listen. And two by reformulating the other person will be able to correct any misinterpretations quick judgments that you might have bought into it. And and that leads to learning and and also to connecting with the other person. The last piece of advice I have on this is, when I certainly when I start my empathy circles, I like to have four other people with me. And I will typically start off by introducing myself and laying out some kind of vulnerability. It's remarkable how modeling that behavior or leading without example, will encourage or invite others to also show vulnerability and imperfection. Because the issue is a lot of these people like to speak, and show how great they are, how perfect they are, and have bravado about how great they have been, or will be. And I think that the the issue of that perfection is that we that's not real, it's not authentic, and it's not relatable.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, I really love the concept of reformulation. That reminds me I know that you are student in many foreign languages as well. But you know, I speak Chinese and Japanese and when I learned those languages, the new vocabulary, especially when I was studying abroad in Beijing and living in Japan, the new vocabulary that I would learn that week, I would always try to actually use in person, find the situation, I can use the word and therefore when you say the word, or when you reformulate what someone else is saying it also internalizes that. And it's also part of that education, right. And I think what you're talking about here, whether it is working with other people in your business, or one of the things that I talk about is influencer marketing, you're going to reach out to 100 different people, different colors, different ethnicities, different backgrounds, and you have to be a good listener. Because it's about collaboration. It's about partnership, it's about relationship building, with people that probably have those egos that you talk about, because they've been successful and you're reaching out to them. So I think that these are all really really great core skills not just as human beings but for us in business as well. And I wanted to to tie that knot so so Minter, what Kenny Moss, well, how do you Muscat. Xia come from I forget I French was my original second language. But that's a long story. But anyway, so now we move on to this book, which you're planning to release in spring? What else can we expect from it outside of what you've already been talking about here?Minter Dial:
Well, I am hoping to encourage boardrooms marketing teams, customer service teams across the board to insert more meaningful conversations into the workspace. And as a result, I will be proposing a number of let's say, products or tools that I will facilitate and help bring that in that there are a couple of things. One is the the notion of listening, by itself is huge. If we could get more listening going on, then we will have more conversations going on. And the second thing is learning how to have the messy, trickier, more sensitive conversations. So that will include things like ethics, politics, personal stories, and vulnerabilities. And when you get into those type of conversations, it's amazing. The energy that they can procure, it's risky, because, you know, if you don't get along, or it's not the right topic, and it explodes wild, so be it. But life is risky. And you can either spend your life trying to go down the medium, and, and be average. And in which case, you're compromising and you're compromised. Because you're never going to be fully yourself. Or you identify a path where you have the courage to stand up for what you believe. And you have the courage to lean into these conversations and, and screw up and show that you're, you know, you have imperfections. And that will garner a stronger leadership behind you. Because if you know how to traverse difficulty, think of Band of Brothers, you become a tighter team. And I think that's so that's what I want to be doing next year as and when the book comes out is to lead boardrooms, teams in general. And it doesn't of course, it can be NGOs, it can be any any number of types of association schools, for God's sake for whatever, and help them bring more meaningful conversations and improve the listening book, which by the way, will help the marketers to understand how their customers are, will have the customer service and how to do better customer service and so on. So forth. Same for the sales teams, of course.Neal Schaffer:
And it's a noble challenge, because, you know, when I was growing up, especially here in the United States, we always had two political parties, but they could still get together, past bills cooperate, but these days, we just seem more and more apart. So the world needs Mr. Daya. We need your next book. And I really hit that should be the subtitle. But I really look forward to reading that and can you tell our listeners where they can go to find out more about you, your writing your books, your podcast, where should I send them?Minter Dial:
Well, so I have to some fortunately weird name, mentor dial talk column where it which is my hub, and I have all the books, links to that to the where the film is the films called the last ring home.com. And where you can get a signed copy of the book. And the substack is mentor mit er.substack.com. And the name of that project is called Dr. Lagos, which is I had to to Viktor Frankl who was the creator of logotherapy, which is all about putting meaning into life. And so I wanted to hat tip to Frankel in this Dr. Lagace, which is putting meaning into dialogue. And in other ways, my podcast is called mentored dialogue. And I have one in French one in English. And I'll be publishing my 500th episode in English with a surprise, big surprise guest in the beginning of January, so there that's the scoop.Neal Schaffer:
Fantastic. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners also are wondering, and I should have asked you as well. Minter dial is your birth name that is not an not an actor name or a celebrity name.Minter Dial:
I know is it. So the the quick story is that I was named after my grandfather. His last name was dial first name Nathaniel. And he was called mentor after his mother's maiden name. So he became the founding mentor dial. He was killed in the Second World War. I was named after him. And that is a topic, the topic of and how I ended up doing my biography on the Second World War, focused on the Philippines and the prisoner of war experiences underneath the Japanese, and looked at what is courage, love and honor in the Second World War, and how we could do a little bit more of that today.Neal Schaffer:
Awesome. Can't wait to check out the documentary. Hopefully, everyone listening, you got a lot out of this as I did. Now, you'll probably understand why I had to have mentor on and why he inspires me. I know he's gonna inspire you, mentor. Thank you so much for your time today. I wish you only the best of luck with with your launches and your new products. And I know that I look forward to seeing you again in the not so distant future.Minter Dial:
You bet Neil, thank you for having me on.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, isn't Minter just an exceptional human being? You know, it was really an honor not just to be on his podcast, but that he made time out of his busy day to meet when I was in London, but I definitely hope you'll go check out his podcast, his books, and reach out to him. He is just one of the most genuinely helpful and friendly people that you will meet out there in in the podcast sphere, or whatever we call podcasters. But anyway, thanks again for listening. If you are new, I hope that you'll hit that subscribe button every other week. I do an interview these episodes normally publish on Thursdays once a week, with back to back me providing solo advice and me interviewing people that inspire me or that I feel are experts in their field. Hey, do you know that on my website, I have a number of free ebooks that can help you on your digital marketing journey. If you go to Neal schaffer.com/freebies. If you go to my homepage, you'll also see in the top menu, there is a freebies menu item. I have free ebooks on you know leveraging LinkedIn for your business. I have a preview of my book on influencer marketing, the age of influence, I have an email marketing guide, a number of resources, a guide about guest blogging and SEO, a lot of free resources, a digital marketing tools Buyer's Guide, a lot of free resources that I think can help you so make sure you go over to Neal schaffer.com/freebies. And I want to thank you again for being a listener to this podcast. I hope you'll join me for the next episode. This is your digital marketing coach Neal Schaffer signing off. You've been listening to your digital marketing coach, questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast dot Neal schaffer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes and Neal schaffer.com to tap into the 400 Plus blog posts that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's Digital First group coaching membership community if you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on your digital marketing coach.