In all of the social media platforms that exists and the various marketing tools that businesses can use to support your presence there, there is one social network for which there is one tool that rules them all.
That social network is Pinterest, and the dominating tool is Tailwind.
Learn from Senior Community Manager of Tailwind, Melissa Megginson all about their tool and comprehensive best practices not just for Pinterest, but also for Instagram and Facebook, which Tailwind supports.
[04:09] Introduction of Podcast Guest, Melissa Megginson
[06:14] What is Tailwind and How Melissa Started
[08:39] Pinterest's Evolution
[11:28] What Type of Pins Should I Be Posting?
[15:30] Melissa's Advice When Creating Idea Pins
[17:37] Best Format and Practices for Video Pins
[18:03] Does Repurposing from Other Platforms Work?
[21:51] What is Tailwind Create?
[24:38] Tailwind Communities
[29:53] Best Practices and Recommendations for Pinterest Ads
[31:52] How to Do Keyword Research on Pinterest
[33:24] What Makes Tailwind Different from Other Platforms?
[36:48] How Should I Approach Instagram Through Tailwind?
[39:30] Melissa's Advice on Facebook Marketing Strategy
[43:38] Final Advice
[44:31] Connect with Melissa and Tailwind Team
- I would definitely think about it as a way to reach a broader audience. So, you don't want to be giving away everything that you have on your website and an idea pen because you still want to drive people to your website.
- It's just super simple to get that really top of funnel, introduce yourself to the Pinterest audience to new potential buyers and pull them in so that once they're following you, you can hit them with those video pins that people can click through on or the static pins that people can click through on.
- So, building up your, your website, your email list, all of that is really important, but you need people to land there first.
- Start with the organic content that's performing for you. I think that's a really good way to just sort of juice what's already happening and getting bad content that's already performing well in front of the right people.
- In social media marketing in general, we talked about the need to be consistent.
- I think when creating any kind of social media posts, you need to think about the story that you're telling rather than the individual posts that you're creating.
- Use the platforms. Don't just go in as a marketer. Use the platforms yourself. Get to know them, get to know what you like, get to know what is performing well, and you'll do a lot better as a mark Get her.
Find Our More about Tailwind:
- Click here to start for free and get a $30 credit for a future subscription – only for my community! (affiliate link)
More Info on Neal Schaffer and This Podcast:
- Join My Digital First Mastermind: https://nealschaffer.com/membership/
- Contact Me about My Fractional CMO Consulting Services: https://nealschaffer.com/contact/
- The Age of Influence Free Preview: https://nealschaffer.com/age-of-influence-preview
- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- Learn more about this podcast: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
What if I told you that there was one tool that you can use this is not a tool native to a social network, but a third party tool that you can use for one of the most popular social networks that can help you do anything and everything. It has very, very unique functionality that goes beyond what that platform offers you. And that tool can be used to help you with some of your other social media marketing scheduling. With that excite you Well, it excites me and that's what I'm going to be talking about on this next episode of The your digital marketing coach, podcast.Unknown:
Digital social media content, influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, blogging, tick tocking, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, sem, PPC, email marketing. There's a lot to cover. Whether you're a marketing professional entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on For expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil, on your side, because Neal Schaffer is your digital digital marketing marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach. And this is Neal Schaffer.Neal Schaffer:
Hey, everybody, this is Neal Schaffer. Welcome to episode number 228 of the your digital marketing coach podcast. As the name implies, my name is Neal Schaffer, I am your digital marketing coach, offering fractional cmo, digital marketing consulting services to corporations, and also host of the digital first mastermind community serving a community of marketers, business owners and entrepreneurs who don't just want to know the how of digital marketing, but really how to leverage it to grow their business. Alright, so I hope you were intrigued by that teaser that I had for you. But it is true. There are lots of different social networks out there. You got Facebook, you got Twitter, you got LinkedIn, you got Instagram. And there's lots of tools that can help you manage them. And all these tools offer pretty similar functionality. But for one specific social network. And you'll find out very shortly that that social network is Pinterest. There is one tool that literally has no competition. It does anything and everything for you. Now Pinterest is a topic that I have talked about on this podcast, but not very often. We have to go back to February 5 of 2020. Wow, that's a year and a half ago when I talked about on episode number 146 Pinterest marketing for those who still don't get it back in Wow, I'm really aging myself here. But Episode Number 77 debunking the Pinterest Myth number 66, the uniquely engaging Pinterest community boards and number 24 are you taking Pinterest seriously. So it's not a major theme of my podcast, but it is something that comes around because Pinterest has always been a large driver of traffic to my digital properties right now. Neal Schaffer calm before I started this podcast, I went on and checked my Google Analytics. And indeed, although it is currently losing a Twitter, Pinterest still drives in 2021 more traffic to my blog, then does Facebook and LinkedIn. In fact, I get more the smart Digital Marketer saying okay, Neil, what about conversions, I get one and a half times more conversions of the traffic coming from Pinterest than I do from Facebook. So it is still an extremely valuable platform that I still invest in, even though I am a b2b business. And therefore, I think regardless of the industry you're in, there's probably a role that Pinterest can play in your marketing. Now when it comes to the tool, that tool that I talked about is tailwind. tailwind, has traditionally been strong in Pinterest, they are now doing more with Instagram and Facebook. So actually, with a particular client of mine, we're using tailwind for our Instagram management. But it is a great tool with a lot of functionality that you probably didn't even know existed. So I'm really honored to serve up this interview with Melissa Megginson, who is the senior community manager of tailwind, an awesome person who have known over the years. There's several awesome talent employees that I've known over the years. But Melissa is great, and really gives us an overview of all of this different functionality, but also a little bit of advice on strategy and tactics and not just for Pinterest, but really any social network that is out there. I also want to say that there's a link that I mentioned, maybe twice in this podcast, the link is for a special discount for my community members. The link is Neal Schaffer comm slash tailwind. It offers you a $30 credit for a future subscription, something that is a unique discount for my community. That is an affiliate link. I did not mention that in my interview. And I know Melissa was, was probably waiting for you to mention that Biggest tailwind is really strict as they should be on making sure that we are abiding by FTC guidelines when it comes to making those statements I just want to be crystal clear in full disclosure that that is an affiliate link. Obviously, every time you purchase through that link it does not cost you any more and it obviously helps fund all this content creation activity that I do. So without further ado, let's just get straight to the interview. All right, Neil. Okay, I get it. Here she is Melissa Megginson senior community manager of Pinterest.Unknown:
You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neal Schaffer.Neal Schaffer:
Melissa, welcome to the your digital marketing coach podcast. ThanksMelissa Megginson:
so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.Neal Schaffer:
Melissa, you're someone that I've known for probably a decade on social media, Pinterest, see, like Social Media Marketing World. So I think this is only the second time we've actually like, you know, met physically originally, but I always see your name coming from tailwind. And you know, for those of you who follow me, you've probably heard me talk about tailwind before. But for those that haven't, Melissa, why don't you give our listeners just a brief overview of and I know the talons really evolved over time. You know what, tell us that and also your role there?Melissa Megginson:
Sure. Yeah, so tailwind is right now. We are mostly focused on Pinterest and Instagram. We have products that help you create posts, schedule posts, analyze posts, so really, you can do your full planning for Pinterest and Instagram right within tailwind. We are working on expanding a little bit. So we'll be adding more features, you'll be able to do a lot more coming very soon. So be on the lookout there. And I've been with the company for almost nine years now, which is hard to believe Honestly, this is my first job out of college, I joined there were just our two co founders and another person I've been with the company the longest other than Danny and Alex are co founders. So it's been pretty amazing watching the company grow from just doing spreadsheets for our members with analytics to where we are now having I don't know even what that kind of growth would look like from 50 members to nearly a million now. So it's been quite the past decade. And I feel like I've been working in dog years just learning so much over the years.Neal Schaffer:
And to tell one's credit really I know that you're you're probably located in Oklahoma City. And the people that are there have always been there it there's all these other social media companies where you're sort of talking to someone different on a monthly or yearly basis. But yeah, it's all the same crew which is awesome. It's I'm sure you're all like family there.Melissa Megginson:
We really are. And it's it's a great company to work for. I love my co workers can't say enough good things even even if they didn't pay my paycheck, I would still really love the company. Well, let'sNeal Schaffer:
hope they pay your paycheck. But so you know, you're in a unique situation to really educate our audience. Because you know, tailwind is one of these unique tools. You there's other social media platforms out there. And there's also other tools. But for Pinterest, specifically, there's tailwind and then there's almost no one else. There's a bunch of tools that sort of had Pinterest as an add on. So maybe we begin our conversation I know we're gonna get to Instagram and Facebook and I know that you have some data and and as an Instagram partner, you've got some great information from them as well. But I think just a logical starting point is Pinterest. This is what tailwind saw very early on the potential and the two are just become synonymous with success with Pinterest marketing. So since COVID, and you know, I listen to your podcast regularly. And you know, we've seen that there's been this huge uptick in in not only interest but actual users. So what what have you seen from your end and from your users in terms of what Pinterest has evolved into in 2021? Going forward into 2022?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, it's kind of crazy when you look at Pinterest now versus Pinterest, like when we started on it all those years ago, and it's gone from a place where you know, you could just throw anything on a board and it would go viral, you would have lots of clicks and everything. But as a painter on Pinterest, someone just going for the natural pinning experience. It wasn't great for a little while there, you would see the exact same posts over and over and over again, it'd be hard to find something new. And Pinterest has done a lot of work to change that. They change the algorithm. So it's no longer time based. It's based on your interests. They've added new types of content that you can share. So it's not just static pins. We now have video pins, we now have idea pins. And the way that you approach Pinterest is also really changing. Traditionally it was seen as a search engine. Seo was really important. You really needed to have your keywords down and you wanted to use it like Google basically like it was just a visual search engine. They've added if you knew the idea of pins in particular are really focused on the social side and keeping people on Pinterest keeping people engaged on the platform, that's a big, big difference that we're seeing versus I mean, even pre 2020, Pinterest, I, they're really trying to make it more of a social network. Of course, there's still that SEO, there's still that search side. But there's now more emphasis on the social side with the idea pens.Neal Schaffer:
So for those people listening, you know, Pinterest is an example of a visual platform, you need to have something visual to upload. And I think now and now, you know, later and later, as time passes, more brands, more businesses are creating more visual content. So I believe it's almost to the point where if they haven't been doing Pinterest, it becomes just an easy add on, to augment and come in. And I'll give you an example. I did my first Instagram carousel post recently. And I was playing around with the Pinterest app, because I heard about these idea pins. And then I realized I could just literally import those 10 images and create an idea pin, put some background music on, and then boom, and that is performed. As you know, idea pins are very hot right now. And it performed extremely well. And then I know that with the way the Pinterest algorithm works, now I get exposed a little bit more as a creator, to other people probably helps the visibility of everything else. But the difference with Pinterest with all those other networks, though, is that the content will evolve because that search engine aspects still is there, right? So you're almost getting the best of both worlds, right?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, and with idea pins in particular, we actually did a study earlier this year. And we analyze more than 20 million pins between February and March, really looking at what's working now. And what we found was idea pens were 41 times received 41 times the number of saves are previously known as repins versus the static image pins. And video pins were performing eight times as well in terms of saves versus static image pins. So if you're on Pinterest, and you're still just sharing static image pins, you're probably not going to see the return that you're used to Pinterest really wants the video content and that idea pin content on the platform. So if you're not giving the algorithm what it wants, it's not going to give you what you want, either.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, so I want to ask you about that, because you deal with a lot of customers and creators. So I'm a big fan of Kate all in the simple pin podcast. And she had an episode where she said a lot of people create an idea pins or using an app called jump rope. Do you find that to be the case? Are there other apps because I think that you can't just take a real or Tick Tock and put it up there as an idea pen. It's not what people are looking for. It's not the way they consume content, right? But if you look at jump rope, it's like I get it. I mean, it was like the carousel poster, I talked about eight different tips. Or you teach something I think if anyone here goes to jump rope.com and check out what's there, they'll get a really good idea as to what will perform well at a Pinterest idea then, which may be a little bit different than rails and tic tocs. Although it could perform well there. Are there any other apps or any advice you can give companies that are brand new to idea pins to let them know how they don't have to be difficult, you know, you probably have 100 different listicle blog posts that you might be able to convert into something or tutorial YouTube videos. So I think a lot of brands have a lot of content. It's just a matter of converting that into that format. Right?Melissa Megginson:
Right. Yeah. And I would definitely think about it as a way to reach a broader audience. So you don't want to be giving away everything that you have on your website and an idea pen because you still want to drive people to your website. But it is just so good for that top of funnel brand awareness, which really wasn't a thing on Pinterest before that was more of a middle of funnel, bottom of funnel type of platform. Whereas now with these idea pins, and you can tell a small complete story within the idea pens, it's really easy to get more of that brand awareness. Plus, after someone goes through all the slides of an idea pin, they're prompted to follow you. So it's great for building your following. It's great for telling a very small story, but I would say yeah, if you have a listicle, pull out a few of those, you know, maybe one through three, one through five of 10 items, pull out a few of those, make them into a story pin. And super simple you can use an app like jump rope, you can use Canva. Now whatever it is, there's very specific aspect ratios for the end right now you can only publish them on Pinterest because they are still I think technically in beta. So fingers crossed, they'll they'll come to other platforms for scheduling soon. But right now you just you can create the content elsewhere. You can even do like a q&a and have the first slide of the idea pen be whatever the question is, and then you just talk to your phone and answer the question. So that's a really engaging way to get people interested. And you know, to kind of introduce yourself as a brand to the Pinterest audience. There's a lot you can do. It doesn't have to be that hard. It doesn't have to be that complicated to make but It's just super simple to get that really top of funnel, introduce yourself to the Pinterest audience to new potential buyers and pull them in so that once they're following you, you can hit them with those video pins that people can click through on or the static pins that people can click through on. So then you're getting more of that middle of funnel bottom of funnel that we all know and love about Pinterest.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm almost going to ask you about a year ago, you probably want to set this but if there was a company new to Pinterest, would you actually tell them start with idea pins without almost be your advice today, just seeing how much visibility they're getting?Melissa Megginson:
That's actually one of the weird things that we found with this study is yes, I depends absolutely do it. But they work especially well if you have more than 10,000 followers, okay, for fewer than 10,000 followers put a little bit more emphasis on the video pins. Those seem to be the ones that are really performing well. But absolutely use a mix because you need both you want to grow your following idea pins are perfect for that. But for increasing your your reach seemingly video pins for the smaller accounts or the ones that are performing a little bit better, but still have that mix.Neal Schaffer:
Okay, I want to just end the note an idea pen. So this one, this Instagram carousel post that I just completely repurposed, I added a separate background music, it was really easy to use the Pinterest app. By the way, I know that sometimes reals Tick Tock can be very complex and confusing. But Pinterest really did a good job with idea pins, and they live on. I mean, they stamped it like a story for 24 hours, then they live on your profile. And I'm just seeing this one idea. Now I have 40,000 followers on Pinterest. But I don't get that many impressions every time I pin which is like 25 to 30 times a day. That's all that's a topic for a whole other episode. But this one idea of being got 3200 impressions, it got 45 clicks, I got 11 saves. And when was the last time something that I Instagram got that sort of visibility and with the way that pinches works people save these things to their boards, which allows them to be discovered in the future by other people. It's which it's it's the gift that keeps on giving that other platforms don't have. So hopefully just with that data that entices you and it is additional visibility right that you're not getting if you're not on the platform. So all right, idea pins are hot. Let's hope they are when this episode publishes, I believe they will be but now we have the video pin versus static pin. Right? And you were talking about how video pins seem to be a little bit more. And I think it's supply demand. When you're on the Pinterest newsfeed. There's very few video pins when you see it, it really jumps out. What are some best practices for for companies that are thinking, Well, I know what a static pin is. What What the heck is a video pin? Is it? Is it a story? Is it like an Instagram video? How would you best describe what that you know the format and best practices are of that?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, so it's more similar to like an Instagram TV or an Instagram real it's the it's the portrait style. You don't want it to be like the YouTube style video. That's the landscape version. So it's quick, you want to pull people in pretty quickly. We've seen that repurposing from other platforms can work. So if you have a tick tock that's done really well, I use one of the apps to remove the tick tock watermark none of the other platforms like when there's a competing watermark on the image. But repurposing that content that you've created for other platforms can work really well. I also like to tell people that since you can use video pins to click through, give away like 50% 75% of the story, and then encourage that click through to go to your website and learn the rest of it. So you're pulling people in, you're giving them a lot of information, but they still need to go visit your website and engage, maybe you have a exit intent pop up, that'll get them to give you your email address. So then you're building that which is really important, you know, any of these networks, obviously, we're living on rented space, if the algorithm changes, you can lose everything overnight. So building up your website, your email list, all of that is really important, but you need people to land there first. So encouraging this, click throughs from those video pins is important. But you also want to give Pinterest what they want. They want great content, they want something that's inspiring and engaging and will bring people back to the platform. So it's a little bit of a balance with idea pins, it's almost easier to grasp because you give you tell the whole story right there. Video pins, you want to draw them in a little bit more, it's more like a trailer. And then the full features on your website with static pins. You're just getting people to click through to your website. So it is there's such different use cases for the different pen types. It's just it depends on what you're trying to go for with each of them.Neal Schaffer:
So how would you in terms of obviously it depends on the industry or in your product and service. But for the video pin, could it be as easy as someone looking in the camera and speaking to grab someone's attention, obviously the title in the description once they click through, they're going to get some more ideas. And then ideally, they're going to go back to your website where you go into more detail. Could it be as simple as that?Melissa Megginson:
Absolutely. Again, if you want to, you know to answer a few questions or tell us short story or talk a little bit about whatever is on your website that you're talking about more in depth, that can absolutely work.Neal Schaffer:
And then the creative itself is basically the portrait mode on a phone that is the exact dimension or it's pretty similar.Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, it's they're less picky about the video pins than they are with the idea pins, there's like an exact pixel for pixel that you have to fit into or else there will be a weird bar with the idea pins, video pins, you have a little bit more flexibility I would still stick to portrait style no matter what but you you know, you don't have to have the exact pixel ratio exactly right, or Pinterest won't publishNeal Schaffer:
it. And then I've seen people with square videos, they'll use the upper and lower space of the vertical to you know, put a title or something to drive traffic. So okay, that works. Cool. So another thing and i think you know, what you're getting are the main feet and Pinterest is a lot more complex than most people think we got the idea pins, you got the video, you got the static, so tailwind, a lot of people don't know people in my community better now. But over the last few months, you've actually released your own tool to help create pins called tailwind create, and I want to go into that because I know it's based on a lot of science and data. I have a designer who has been using Canva to create pins. And when he started using tailwind create, he goes, oh my god new I love this. So obviously, if you're a designer, you're probably going to use Photoshop or whatever design tools you use. But for non designers who are looking for inspiration, it's quite incredible to see. So can you tell the listeners a little bit about that tool and how it was developed? And what's the science behind it?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that Pinterest has said, static pins still work, they can still really drive great traffic to your website. But they don't want to see the same image with the same text overlay hitting the exact same audience over and over and over again, that's what they're trying to get away from. What tailing create really helps you do is quickly like in under two minutes, we found, I create these pins that are 95% done, all you have to do is tweak a few things. And then you can directly schedule it in tailwind that allows you to pull in different audiences change out the image, change the colors, you can still have your branding, we still definitely recommend either having your website URL on there or your logo, you'd still want people to recognize who you are. Even if the template is a little bit different. We found that when comparing tailwind, create pins to those that are just re sharing the same pin over and over the tailwind create pins with that new design with maybe updated title performs 373% better in terms of saves, versus just sharing the same content. So in under two minutes, you can get almost 400 times or 400% more saves versus you know, it's sure it's quicker to repeat the same thing over and over again. But you're not going to get the same results.Neal Schaffer:
And the format of the different set of templates are broad. Those were also based on recommendations from Pinterest, right?Melissa Megginson:
Correct. Yeah. So we, we have a great relationship with Pinterest, and they give us tips on what's performing. We're constantly updating the templates to so i i love Canva as well. But sometimes you can look at a pen and go Yep, I've seen that before. And yeah, yeah, it'sNeal Schaffer:
I know that Canva template. Um,Melissa Megginson:
same thing with the unsplash photos. Like, if you've been in marketing for a long time you start to recognize those.Neal Schaffer:
Sorry, blog readers. I use unsplash a lot. Sorry about that.Melissa Megginson:
I do too. It's great. But sometimes you have to do a little bit of digging to get the photos that not everyone uses.Neal Schaffer:
Yep. Yep, I agree. And just to you know, as a reminder, people that have followed me for years, I'm always speaking about Pinterest just this year. From my static pins alone traffic to my website from social media. Pinterest represents 21% Twitter's 45%. But Pinterest outperforms Facebook and LinkedIn. So just a reminder that there's even with Pinterest favoring idea pins and video pins, those static image pins can still do well. But you need to up your game. You need to have fresh creative and tell them creates a great tool that I've become a big fan of and hopefully people want to get started to look into that as well. I wanted to throw out some other well another cool feature of tailwind which other platforms don't have, I believe Pinterest approves it, which is this notion of the communities that you have. And it's a weird thing where there's all these apps out there and we've have and we still have things like Treiber Well, it's like hey, you share with me I share with you but I've found that I have my own community. That's been done really well, I found it's been a really great way to meet new content creators to be exposed to new content. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And I mean, does Pinterest you're not using any special API. So I guess from Pinterest, but is this something that's approved by Pinterest or tell the listener a little bit about telling communities?Melissa Megginson:
Yes, so with communities, technically, if you have enough content, and if you're making enough new pins, you don't ever have to share anyone else's pins. That's fine. Pinterest has said if you only share your own content, you're good. There's no 8020 rule anymore, it's you know, you can go ahead and just share your own content. However, most of us are not content creation machines. And to kind of supplement your boards with some of that content from your fans from other people that you like add new folks in your space that you may not have met communities are really great for that it's not going to hurt you at all afford to have other people sharing your content or for you to share other people's content, it could potentially help Of course, someone happens to click through and buy from a pen that was shared by a community member. Amazing. So it's, you know, you're not going to see the instantaneous impact that cheering getting a lot of pins from your website out there used to have. But it's still a great way to meet people, it's still a great way to supplement your schedule when you don't have a ton of content. And it's a great way to have other share your content, maybe give a little bit more context to what you're painting, or what you're talking about to Pinterest, because they are looking at the boards, they're looking at the accounts that are sharing your pins. And that kind of helps give them signals about what your content is about. So it is still a really great way people are still finding success with communities. But if you're the buzz feeds of the world, you have tons of content going out every single day with new URLs and new images, then you don't technically need to share anyone else's content. But communities are great for that.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, I'm a big fan, I consider Pinterest pretty similar to Twitter. You don't want to like overshare, but you need to have a certain cadence to be found. And if you don't have enough content, curated content is a great way to do it. And what I've always thought is, well, if I'm going to share other people's content, it would be nice if they shared mine too, right? This notion of reciprocity and social media. So I just want to share with people so my community I entailing communities is called blogging, digital and social and social media marketing pros. So it's obviously about blogging, digital and social media marketing. We currently have 787 members, some of those members include tailwind. Mike Oulton social media, who A lot of you had Donna Moritz who A lot of you should know easel a lot of great Mari Smith, a lot of really, really great people that yes, they're contributing their content, but it's great content to begin with, that you'd want to share. And they're also sharing your content if they find it compelling, right? There's no guarantees but you know, this is a community wear and tear when it's really good to give me the stats here, we've had a total of 56,000 reshares 25,100 re pins or shares, I myself have gotten 1700 reshares which have led to a reach a 10 million and I'll let you know I've submitted a lot of my own pins but I have actually shared 4009 of other people's pins and in fact, I only curate content and talent for my own community now it just makes sense to do that. So that's really the power and whenever I have you know new clients that get turned on to Pinterest, I immediately help them find a commute letting them know that hey, you should be sharing. One of my clients is a hair color company. So yeah, if there's a beauty blogger that has like hair color tips or hair care tips, that's a no brainer. Maybe they'll share your content maybe not but all those other benefits you talked about Melissa of letting Pinterest know what your boards about having more content for your followers. It's it's a win win win. So I just wanted to let people know because really, that's the only sort of community within a tool for any social media platform that exists once again tailwinds is very Pinterest is very special talents very special. Just another reason to to try them out. You know, we could go further. I guess the only other thing left and I'm just going step by step with Pinterest are really Pinterest ads. And I know this is something obviously a talent doesn't support per se, but I hear I hear different things about I know like for my own brand and for a client I'm working with I think what people need to understand is sort of the yin and the yang, the good and the bad. So versus a Facebook ad a Pinterest ad leads people to the pin. So it's actually a two step process. They don't immediately go outside of Pinterest. On the flip side that ad remains forever as an organic pin that can still be engaged with that that gives social proof for those listening that want to get involved in the I find the ad platform really easy to use. I know some people find it complex. I love the Pinterest user interface, but any you know advice that you give businesses that want to do more with with Pinterest ads have sort of best practices around them.Melissa Megginson:
Start with the organic content that's performing for you. I think that's a really good way to just sort of juice what's already happening and getting that content that's already performing well, in front of the right people. We also found a study that showed that with Pinterest advertising, the ads on there are actually 2.3 times more efficient with the cost per conversions than other social ads, and has a 2x higher return on adspend. So it's, you know, it's not that complex, you just use a pin, you just promote the pin, you can tag the audiences and everything. And it works really well. It continues to be one of our best ad platforms. My coworker Elisa is a genius at Pinterest ads. And so she, she loves it, she swears by it. She has done incredible things for tailwind with our ads. But I think really, pretty much on any ad platform, if you are starting with the things that are already performing organically, preventing that little bit of extra juice can hurt.Neal Schaffer:
And I've also heard that similar to organic pins in general, rather than lead people directly to a landing page, lead people to great content, right? The end of it or the pop up you have your opt in, is going to perform. It's sort of counterintuitive, but that's just performed better, right?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, yeah, you're giving people what they're interested in, rather than just selling directly to them. And then again, you're building that thing that you own, and that you can then retarget to you can turn those emails that you collect into a retargeting campaign, on Pinterest, on Facebook, wherever. And so there's a lot of benefit that can come from advertising. AndNeal Schaffer:
what's really cool. So I'm going to, I'm going to take your for your advice, Melissa, I haven't seen those results yet. So in many ways, I find sometimes Twitter is the best advertising platform for me, you know, other times, it's Facebook, I'm going to do more on Pinterest. But one thing I did want to say what's really cool of the Pinterest app platform, which reminds us that it is a search engine is that you can target keywords like you do with Google. And that's something that no other social ad platform. I mean, Twitter to some extent, but and that's really exciting thing about the Pinterest platform for me.Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, oh, and I love the keywords in there because it actually gives you the search volume to you can use that information to then inform your organic strategy with what keywords you're putting in your title and your description. You know, you can glean a lot of really great information for organic use through the ads platform.Neal Schaffer:
So hey, if any of you are interested in going deeper into this, let me know we'll do a future episode just on Pinterest ads. But I want to shift gears a little bit because tailwind has also shifted gears and become a full fledged you know, Instagram platform as well. I in my digital first membership community for those members that are less smart dot bio is sort of the official you know, URL, but not URL like the link tree type application that that social media bio link that you have on a platform like Instagram. And if you go to my instagram.com slash Neal Schaffer, you'll see in the link, it is a smart biotech as well. So but I know obviously you've done a lot more than that. You have hashtag generators, you know, visual drag and drop to be able to schedule your posts. So what made I guess let's take a step back tailwind, Pinterest, it was like chocolate and peanut butter. And then you added Instagram, what was the strategic decision to add Instagram to that mix? What Why did tell one thing that you could provide something? Because there were already a lot of players in the space that time right. So what is it that tailwind has that is a little bit different than the other platforms.Melissa Megginson:
So when we first added it, everything that we do with our roadmap, our product roadmap is based on the feedback that we get from our members. So we just had a lot of members saying, hey, you're already supporting Pinterest, which is a visual platform, why not support Instagram as well. And so we explored it, we became an Instagram partner. And then we built out our scheduling platform. What's really great about tamlin for Instagram, is that again, you can do everything from post creation, to analyzing right within tailwind. tailwind, create now supports feed posts and stories and Facebook posts. All right, within tailwind. And so you can create the post, write the caption, get the right hashtags, and schedule it to be published, auto published. All right within the platform, our analytics if you have a business account, again, I think this is true for every third party platform. You need to have a business account to be able to auto publish. But if you have that connected then you can do things like automatically add your hashtags in the first comment if you don't want them in your You can also analyze the performance of the posts. There's just so much you can do without having to leave tailwind. That really helps you timebox and make sure that actually one of the things that we learned recently, my coworker Chloe is a Instagram influencer in her own right outside of tailwind and she had a call with Instagram a few weeks ago where they told her that Consistency is the most important thing you can do to grow on Instagram algorithm listens to patterns, it wants you to create a pattern and stick with it. So if you post on Fridays at 5pm, and you post a carousel post next Friday at 5pm, you better be posting as a carousel posts. So a scheduling tool like tailwind, can really help with that. Because, you know, you may not be thinking about publishing on Instagram. I knew your Friday afternoon, but that's what they want.Neal Schaffer:
That's really, really interesting. In social media marketing in general, we talked about the need to be consistent. And it makes sense, because then there's more content out there that you have that gets seen, but as an algorithm ranking factor, I never honestly some people mentioned it, I never really thought about it that way. But that's really, really ancient. It also makes sense. They want to reward those content creators that are investing the time on the platform on a consistent basis. Right,Melissa Megginson:
right. Yeah. And it was really interesting that it had to be the same content type. Okay, you can't just post a carousel post on Friday, and then a video on the next Friday, it has to be the same content type that goes out regularly.Neal Schaffer:
Row. Okay, now, it's time to do another carousel post, I guess. So is that I wanted to shift gears because Instagram is in a really interesting place in 2021. I mean, all this is supply and demand. At some point, you got more people on the platform, you got more content creators, so you know, organic reach goes down. But then you've had the disruption of first Instagram stories, and now reels, which just seems to, I just can't turn it off my newsfeed, they just keep pushing it. And real is very, very different, where you'll get a lot of exposure, but you don't necessarily get conversion from that exposure. I think a lot of people find So today, for those listening, what what how should we approach Instagram? Do we go in all in on reels, even though it might not be appropriate for our industry? I guess you could make it appropriate. But what is tailwind? You know, what advice do you give your customers in terms of how they should be tweaking their Instagram strategy going forward?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, so they, they want you to post rails, they recommended to Chloe, that it's a 6040 split 60% of what you're posting should be reels Wow, then 40%. The other content stories, of course, are they they view that differently? They think stories are that doesn't play into the algorithm, the way that the the the pattern Sue, so they just interesting posts at least once per day give a little bit of the background, they actually like told her specifically what each content type represents. So for the feed posts, those are the memories that she wants to keep, those are the things that are going to last forever. Stories are capturing a moment in time that's fleeting, unless you've added to your highlights. And then reels are meant to be a mini trailer for something that you really want to show people. So understanding the different purposes of the different content types, the patterns that you're looking for, as well as that 6040 split of content can really, really help you. Interestingly, they also want you to create everything in the Instagram camera. So while you're editing your reels on Instagram, that's what they want to see.Neal Schaffer:
Wow, that's amazing advice, Melissa, and thinking of the Instagram feed post as your memory and the real as a mini trailer that's really powerful. And really a great way to sort of shift our mindset if we're not on board with or we don't want to be seen to make ourselves look stupid, and we can't dance. And you know, but But I also know that even in b2b, there are a growing number of tick talkers and reels that will it's using the same format, but using it in a more educational way. So well, it's time to up our reels game people. You heard it from the source right here. So finally, we wanted to cover Facebook a little bit because I know the talent has extended your functionality to Facebook as well. You know, Facebook's really interesting, I was just on a podcast before. And I do these SEO content audits on my site. And I part of that audit is looking at the keywords that I'm targeting and there are some Facebook keywords I'm targeting. But I hadn't looked at the search volume over the course of a year and I've seen that the search volume for a lot of keywords has just dropped for Facebook. And obviously I'm sure it's increased for tik tok and for Instagram and probably for Pinterest as well. Facebook is so old and there's just so much bad blood in the air I know can still be effective. I know like Facebook groups can can still be a goldmine and even organic reach on personal profiles is still there. But for businesses that have pages that think that Facebook has just about, you know, 100% pay to play, what advice can you give them.Melissa Megginson:
I think when creating any kind of social media posts, you need to think about the story that you're telling rather than the individual posts that you're creating. So if you're making a story that can be told on tik tok on Instagram on Pinterest, and then on Facebook, it's a little bit easier to make those posts on the blog. farms that you know are going to perform really, really well. And then you can optimize the Facebook post for that as well. I agree that I think pretty much most people now use Facebook for Facebook groups. And those are still great for connecting with your community. Honestly, that's 90% of what I do on Facebook or groups is so focusing on your group where you're putting, like the real strategy, the real effort in. And then using a tool like tailwind where you can just have that social media story that you're wanting to tell and break it down into the different platforms, you already have the story, all you need to do is use tailwind create, to make the image for Pinterest, Instagram, Facebook, it's all right there, get it scheduled, have it posted, and have it sort of be repurposed. So you're still being active, that also plays into account. If you are making ads, you need to have an active profile, it looks a lot better if people click through and see that you're posting regularly. So it's still important, but you'd sort of have to think about it differently. So strategy goes into the communities to the groups, and then repurposing your other content goes into the actual like, posting to your page, I think it was like 2018, where they did the Facebook zero where basically every page lost all of their reach because they want you to use ads, you still need to have some organic posts on there. It can't all be ads. So you know just repurposing that content that you're already creating and publishing it on on Facebook can save you time and still get you that that consistency.Neal Schaffer:
And what's interesting is I mean, just as tailwind and Pinterest has been transformed into more of a video platform. If almost we think video first with Facebook, we know we're going to do a lot better, right? And we know there's going to be a lot more views that we can also retarget for our paid social as well. So maybe just reimagining how we use it with the video first these videos, whether it's the idea, pin, the video pin, the real the story and bring that bring those best performers over to Facebook, that might be the best solution. Hmm,Melissa Megginson:
yeah. And for us actually, Elise's Facebook Lives that she does what Jeff see who I'm sure is a friend of the podcast as well. Yeah, they always perform so well. Those are our best performing assets on Facebook. But she worked really hard to build that audience over time. So yeah, you're going to be instantaneous. But if you have a great topic if you have an engaging presence on screen, then it can work so so well.Neal Schaffer:
Yeah, I was on a live stream yesterday called deal casters dot live. They do like Amazon live in addition to Facebook and everywhere else when our episode, it's a different world and people consume content differently. And if you're not part of this new world, your competitors probably are. So a lot of great reminders ended. He goes hey, we just got 3000 views. I'm like what? Yeah, so there's opportunity out there if and they also do it. They they're like Neil, we did it wrong. We didn't create the product or service. We just created the show for us. I'm like, No, that's what that that's what people want. They want the show, right? They don't want to buy the product, but they want to be entertained. They want to be educated. So just to sum up today's conversation, there's a lot of opportunity out there. But you can't be thinking of social media marketing, like you did back in 2011. I also want to remind people before we go, that tailwind has been very, very nice to give my community including your listeners a chance to get a free trial and a $30 credit for a future subscription. Make sure you go to Neal Schaffer comm slash tailwind. Melissa, any final advice? I think we covered, you are probably wondering, Neil, how are we going to cover all this? I think we covered the whole spectrum. But is there any any final advice that you might have for our listeners?Melissa Megginson:
I think the final thing that I would recommend is use the platforms don't just go in as a marketer, use the platform's yourself, get to know them, get to know what you like, get to know what is performing well. And you'll do a lot better as a marketer.Neal Schaffer:
Amen to that. And, yeah, if you use tailwind, you haven't logged into Pinterest. You might notice that you might have missed comments on your pins. Some messages from your fans. I know that I have I try to check in there more and more regularly. But yeah, you got to be a user of the platform to perform well on it. So great advice, Melissa. Thank you so much. Obviously, everyone can go to Neal schaffer.com. Slash tailwind get access to the free demo and the credit for the future. So that's an easy link to passive any other any other areas or links that we should share with with the audience to get to know Melissa or the team at tailwind better.Melissa Megginson:
I would definitely recommend the tailwind blogs such as tailwind app, comm slash blog. We have a ton of great content and you can find us on most social networks. If you just search for tailwind or tailwind app. We're there and we have some exciting announcements coming so definitely keep an eye out.Neal Schaffer:
Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your time, your experience your expertise with everyone, Melissa I know that will be see each other in the near future once those conferences get in person again?Melissa Megginson:
Yeah, can't wait. Thanks for having me.Neal Schaffer:
Thank you. All right, I hope you enjoyed the interview as much as I do. And I'm really a huge fan of this tool because it is in the world of social media tools, it really is unique. And it's not only a monopoly that it has on a certain social network, which in this case is Pinterest, but also offering this unique functionality like a telling create, which could replace Canva. For some people, I know for my own pins, I am now 100%, creating them until and create instead of going outside of tailwind to create them on Canva. It's all in the same tool. There's just so much efficiency. And as I mentioned in the interview, the tailwind does use best practices to serve up designs that are highly converting on Pinterest, maybe that's why I still get a lot of traffic from Pinterest, they also have the tail and communities. And I've been able to make great connections. And it's definitely helped amplify my content as well. So I can't say enough about it even tailored for Instagram, a lot of really cool functionality. And right now we're sharing all of our Instagram over to our Facebook page, and the ability to customize the Facebook message when it's shared over so a lot of really, really cool functionality across all the social networks. If you haven't checked it out, please make sure to do so. And check out the Neal schaffer.com slash tailwind for your $30 exclusive discount. Once again. That is an affiliate link. Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Hey, is there a topic? That's like Neil, you're my digital marketing coach? Why have you talked about this? or Why haven't you talked about that are Neil, I'm really stuck. Will you help me? I will. I want to I can I want to serve you but I can't unless you let me know. So feel free to reach out to me do it in a comment, you know, leave a rating for this podcast on Apple or Spotify, wherever you're listening with it with a comment and a question. Or perhaps you simply is reach out to me on social media, fill out a contact form on my website, email me at Neal at Neal Schaffer Comm. There are tons of ways of getting a hold of me. So just drop me a line. I would honestly really, really love to hear from you. Rather than all these people that sell me on all this stuff and OPT me and all these newsletters that I always have to report for spam. So please make my day. All right. So that's it for another episode of The your digital marketing coach podcast. This is your digital marketing Coach Neal Schaffer signing out.Unknown:
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