Why CMOs Are Being Replaced by Chief Revenue Officers (And How Marketers Can Survive)

[00:00:00] Here's an uncomfortable truth. While your sales team is complaining they need better leads and your marketing team is frustrated that sales isn't closing the lead they're providing, companies with aligned revenue teams are eating your lunch. My guest today reveals why some businesses are eliminating, that's right, eliminating the CMO position entirely and replacing it with chief revenue officers. And it's not what you think.

[00:00:27] He also shares the simple meeting strategy that transformed warring departments into unified revenue machines, plus the specific metrics that keeps marketers employed when budget cuts come. If you ever wondered why sales always seems to have more influence than marketing, or if you're tired of internal battles hurting your bottom line, this episode will change everything. So stay tuned for this next episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast.

[00:01:20] Your Digital Marketing Coach Because Neal Schaffer is your digital marketing coach. Helping you grow your business with digital first marketing, one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neal Schaffer. Hey everybody, this is your digital marketing coach, Neal Schaffer.

[00:01:47] And welcome to episode number 431 of this podcast. Now, today's episode is for larger organizations that have both a sales and marketing team. But as with all episodes, regardless of how big or small your organization is, I think you're going to find some great takeaways. Now, what you're about to hear challenges everything most businesses believe about sales and marketing departments.

[00:02:12] While most companies treat these as separate functions with different goals, my guest today has spent his career in the unique position of speaking both languages. Literally managing Salesforce as a marketer and serving as the bridge between these two worlds. A. Lee Judge, author of Cash and founder of Content Monster, discovered something remarkable. The companies winning today aren't just aligning sales and marketing. They're treating them as one revenue machine with specialized skill sets.

[00:02:41] Think of it like a sports team. We have offense and defense, but they're still playing the same game toward the same goal. But here's what makes this conversation particularly timely. Lee reveals why we're seeing the rise of chief revenue officers replacing CMOs. And it has nothing to do with sales taking over marketing. It is about survival. In his experience, marketers who learn to speak sales language and focus on revenue metrics are the ones who keep their jobs when cuts come.

[00:03:09] While those focused on likes and follows find themselves on the chopping block. Now, for those of you that might not know, my background before all of this is B2B sales. So I have always had a sales focus on marketing that is based on the same sort of results orientation that most salespeople are on as well. And I trust that you listen to this podcast and follow me because you appreciate that.

[00:03:36] And Lee really reiterated a lot of the things that I have found just reflecting back on my own B2B sales experience. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. Whether you're running a team of two or of 20, the principles Lee shares about creating feedback loops, shared metrics, and collaborative systems will transform how you think about growing your business. Let's jump into today's interview with a lead judge. You're listening to your digital marketing coach.

[00:04:05] This is Neil Schaefer. Hey, everybody. This is Neil Schaefer. And welcome to another edition of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. Now, this is a podcast about marketing. But if you work in an organization that is larger than yourself, you might have a salesperson or a sales team.

[00:04:25] And if you do have a sales team, there's often a lot of, well, internal conflicts that arise at a lot of businesses that I have worked at where sales wants to get more leads for marketing and marketing wants sales to close the leads they've already given them. However, as you should know, if sales and marketing can somehow work together, there are just so many benefits, not just for marketing, but for your entire organization. And that's going to be a topic that we're going to cover today.

[00:04:53] Today, we have the author of this book, Cash, Communication Alignment Systems Honesty, The Four Keys to Better Sales, Smarter Marketing, and a Supercharged Revenue Machine. The author is A. Lee Judge. And obviously, we're going to be talking a lot about this sales and marketing alignment. But even if you do not have a sales team, you're going out at yourself, you're a service provider, content creator, what have you, I think that there's going to be a lot of advice that's going to be applicable for you as well.

[00:05:22] That when you have client calls, when you are meeting with potential clients, there is a lot of information there. Are you funneling that back into your marketing as well and building this revenue-generating machine? So without further ado, A. Lee, welcome to the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. Hey, Neil. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Yeah, it's an honor to have you. And well, it's a little TMI for people that don't know what we had to go through today. But we actually had to switch software platforms to record this.

[00:05:49] So I'm excited that we're finally getting the ball rolling. So, you know, A. Lee, you published this book, Cash, Congratulations, by the way. I know that just came out a few months ago. And you obviously have your own company, Content Monsta. You do a lot of video content. And we're talking sales and marketing alignment. How did this all get started? I know when we were prepping for this, you know, my background's B2B sales. It sounds like yours is more on the marketing side. But where did this all begin?

[00:06:14] Well, you know, my first marketing title was digital marketer or digital marketing manager. And so I'm a marketer at heart. But the unique part about my journey is that that first position, I was placed in between sales and marketing. In other words, unexpectedly, I was given Salesforce as my baby. I had to be the Salesforce admin because prior to that job, I had built several CMSs. I didn't even know what a CMS was. I just knew I had built these customer service databases.

[00:06:45] And so when I got hired in this marketing position, they said, oh, by the way, our sales team needs to do better at using Salesforce, keeping their data, and working with marketing. So that, by definition, put me in between sales and marketing directly between unexpectedly. So it made me a better marketer along the way.

[00:07:05] And for the next couple of positions in different companies, both small and global, that's the role that I served, the guy who could speak both languages, both marketing and sales. And here I am today, the book was basically me expressing all the things I've learned as someone in between seeing both sides of that story. That's amazing that that company worked at, that you as a marketer were enforced with managing how salespeople use Salesforce.

[00:07:34] Because as you can imagine, that is normally a role. And having someone, having used Salesforce in my last B2B sales role, that is normally someone in, I guess now you would call that more of like sales enablement. But, you know, firmly in the sales department. So, you know, kudos to that first company for understanding the importance. And obviously, your intelligence and aptitude is why you were chosen for that role. Otherwise, you would normally find someone in sales. So that's amazing. So being in between.

[00:08:00] So having a marketer hat, but managing Salesforce and being able to speak marketing and sales. So I, in my introduction, said marketing is like, hey, sales, what are you doing? My leads and sales is like, hey, marketing, we need more leads, need more pipeline. When you say you're able to speak with marketing and sales, is that sort of the speak? Is that sort of what you see? Or, you know, what do you see on the ground, the way that marketers speak about sales and the way that sales speak about marketing? Yeah. You know, I didn't know it early on, but there's always this tug of war.

[00:08:29] And if you go back to the tradition or the stereotype that we're trying to climb out of, you have the situation where they have the idea of the handoff, where marketing finds leads, hands them off to sales, and it goes back to find more leads while sales does the closing. That time has passed. You know, now as a marketer, you have to understand what's going to happen with this lead once I present it to sales.

[00:08:54] And once I present it to sales, how can I help sales continue that lead on into a prospect and a customer and then a repeat customer? Marketing doesn't hand it off or give it up. Marketing is always still there to help sales do their job. Now, on the flip side of that, a salesperson has to realize that things have changed as well. We've heard all the numbers. 60, 70, 80% of the customer journey happens before someone wants to talk to sales. I give those different numbers because it varies per industry.

[00:09:23] But as high as 80%, that means that as a salesperson, you have to understand and recognize that your customer is going to research without you. They're going to learn without you. And they're going to learn from either you or your competitor. So that's marketing. Marketers are the ones who are educating our customers before sales gets a chance to send an email or have a phone call or have an in-person meeting. So once sales understands that, they realize that marketing is doing part of the sales process, which means that we now have a revenue process.

[00:09:53] It's not a sales process and a separate marketing process. It is one revenue team that has to focus and utilize their respective skill sets to find an audience, educate the audience, bring them into the organization sphere of knowledge, and then help close the deal. But the linear funnel doesn't exist anymore. So if you're a salesperson, you need marketing. If you're a marketer, you need to understand your goal, which is to sell. So Lee, thank you for that explanation.

[00:10:22] I'm curious. Do you still think there's a need for two separate departments? Or there's some people who say this is just one revenue-generating machine. If sales and marketing truly want to work together, why can't it just be one? What is your take on that? I think it should be one department with two distinct skill sets. Right?

[00:10:41] So you have people who have the skill set of understanding how to find a market, how to communicate with the market, how to have a strategy of how to find people that fit your product or service. That's a skill set. Now, the psychology of convincing someone to buy what you're trying to sell, that is a selling skill set. Sales should have a skill set of closing deals and understanding where to prioritize their activities.

[00:11:09] Those are distinct skill sets, just like a sports team. You have your offense and your defense. There's still one team, but they have specialized skills. Your linebackers are not going to be the best quarterbacks. They just don't have that same skill set. So same thing with sales and marketing. There are skill sets, but it should be just one revenue team. Yeah, that sports team analogy really drives that message home. And I'm just thinking back.

[00:11:35] There's some marketers that when I was in B2B sales, I would come on a sales call with me and the customer would be very happy. And the marketer would say, oh, my gosh, sales is so easy. When they don't understand, it really is a separate skill set. And I urge any marketer listening to this podcast to check out the top sales books and start reading them about sales methodology. And they will see that it is a completely different art than the art of marketing, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if someone goes back to this, the favorite sales meme of sell me this pin.

[00:12:03] On that spot, you don't have a chance to do a nurturing campaign and send out a bunch of emails. You need to sell the pin right then. That's what a salesperson should be able to do, right? Yeah. Even within that scenario, there's a bit of psychology that both the salesperson and marketing person should understand on how to sell that pin. And why does that person have that pin in mind, particularly perhaps because marketing convinced them that they wanted a pin or needed a pin? So even there, I think marketing's in the picture. Yeah.

[00:12:32] And I think I'm just reflecting back on my own days. And this is really some time ago before the environment that we are in today where, you know, buyers, vendors, they are doing that research that is being influenced by marketing. But, hey, it's also being influenced by salespeople on LinkedIn sharing links, what have you. So the need for this convergence is more and more necessary. So let's get into the actual advice that you would give people, you know, based on your book and all the work that you've done. The first thing is we were prepping for this call.

[00:12:59] You said, join each other's meetings. And I'd like you to go a little bit deeper on how that can be beneficial. Yeah. Well, you know, the best way to describe that is a story I tell in the book about when I was a new marketer. I still had the gall to speak up in meetings and interrupt sales in their process. But in that scenario, I had the opportunity to be a marketer who reported dotted line to the CEO. And the CEO was a salesperson.

[00:13:26] And so my marketing fluff didn't make a difference to the CEO. He didn't care about likes and page views. He wanted to know how could marketing influence pipeline. So that put me in the sales meetings. And what that did was it allowed me as a marketer to understand what was important to the sales team, what they were selling, what their objections were, what their favorite products to sell were. What were the most profitable products? Not just the most newest or the shiniest or the most exciting one.

[00:13:56] Which one actually brought in the most revenue? These are things that sometimes marketing teams are siloed from. You know, marketing is typically, you know, marketing the most shiniest object. The newest one, not knowing that perhaps the dullest object in the company, the dullest product may be the biggest contributor to the bottom line. So a marketer in a sales meeting hears things to understand what's important to the company rather than what's important to marketing.

[00:14:24] The second advantage is you get to hear salespeople and their frustrations at particular objections they get from customers. Why is a product not selling? Why is the customer pushing back? What features does the customer wish we had? That is a goldmine of content for marketing that is designed for sales, not designed for likes or follows. It's designed to help the salesperson move things down the line. So that's when a marketer attends a sales meeting.

[00:14:53] Now, on the other side of that, if sales attends marketing meetings, one, they can get a vision of, if this is a good marketing team, where the industry is going. They can get an understanding of what tools that the company has to gauge customer sentiment or if they're responding to their emails or products, what kind of questions customers are asking. And also for sales to give some advice, to say, oh, wow, you guys are marketing this, but we're selling that.

[00:15:21] Let me tell you what's really happening, what the CEO or CFO really cares about. And there are going to be some surprising moments when marketing realizes that, wow, we're not aligned. We thought this was important, but you're telling us that it's not. Or, you know, I had a marketer tell me recently that they had a whole campaign lined up, two, three months campaign over a product, and then couldn't figure out why sales wasn't selling it. It turns out sales didn't get a lot of revenue from that product.

[00:15:51] It was the old product. But without that communication, marketing would continue to do things with no ROI, and they end up being part of the call center instead of the profit center. So overall, the meaning of these meetings that we need to join is to understand the other part of the same team and break down these silos. Yeah, you know, it's funny. In marketing, we always say we got to get closer to the customer. We got to get in front of the customer. We got to better understand the customer.

[00:16:21] And the next best thing to do in that, I'm sure you'd agree, Lee, is actually being in a sales meeting and engaging with your sales team because they are in front of the customer, right? Yeah. And it could be as simple as I was with one organization. And as I explained before, you know, I was a Salesforce administrator as well as the marketing operations administrator. So I did marketing ops and sales ops. And something that I rarely saw that seemed so extremely simple was marketing having access to the opportunities in the closed deals.

[00:16:50] Like if marketing can look at what deals closed this month, this quarter, this year, then they can begin to reverse engineer how, what was that customer journey like? Now, it isn't quite as clear as it was years ago with this click to close mentality of what did they click to get here? But you can reverse engineer to see what interactions do we know about that help close that deal.

[00:17:15] You may find patterns like, okay, every deal we closed last year, the majority of those people went to a webinar or the majority of these people went to an event. The majority of these people actually were opening emails. You find out what deals actually closed and then reverse engineer what led to those deals. And it can give you very good insight on what marketing works and what marketing doesn't. That connection, marketers look at the closed deals and that will be your roadmap.

[00:17:43] That's really fantastic advice. And on aligned with that advice, as we were prepping for this call, you mentioned that sales and marketing should also have a sense of shared metrics. So when I'm in sales, it's all about how much I'm closing. That is the ultimate metric. And maybe after that, the pipeline value. Obviously, marketers are looking at very different KPIs. How can these two worlds come together and align on these shared metrics? What would that look like? So let's start with the marketers.

[00:18:12] We have our KPIs that live within marketing. You know, we have things such as our marketing qualified leads, our website visits, our likes, our follows, our engagements. But we need to think more about KPIs that align with sales, that sales can appreciate, and that affect the whole buyer's journey, the whole measurement of if the business is going in the right direction. I'll give you some examples. Funnel velocity.

[00:18:37] How fast are we finding people and how fast they go from we found them to we close the deal with them? You should have a list of who's in your pipeline, and you want to shorten that sales cycle. That requires effort from both team members, from both the sales teams and the marketing teams. If you can increase that velocity, that's a measurement that matters to the CEO. So that's also accelerating your sales cycle. So you could call it a sales cycle acceleration.

[00:19:05] Are you getting more customers? Are you retaining customers? And also, if you do that reverse engineering I mentioned earlier, you can look at your pipeline and see what part of that pipeline was influenced by marketing. So a marketing influence pipeline. These are all things that you can measure that mean something to the business and not just the marketing. I've got a page on my website on aleadjudge.com.

[00:19:30] There's an article that lists like 15 different measurements you can use that mean something to the sales team. So look that up. I think it's called, what is it called? Marketing Measurement Decoded. Proving Business Value with a New Focus on Untapped KPIs. So look at that article. Then you can find some KPIs that get beyond the CMO to the CFO and CEO and help marketers keep their jobs by approving their ROI.

[00:19:57] Yeah, I would say, you know, when there's corporate restructuring, like final job I had, it was actually they completely obliterated corporate marketing. So, but rarely do you see salespeople getting cut off when the company wants to grow sales. So there you go. And in sales, I would always, my attitude towards marketers is like, hey, it's our revenue being generated that's paying the bills here that pays for the salary. So having that mindset in marketing, I agree, is really critical and it'll help them become better.

[00:20:26] And I think, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, Lee, but I'm assuming that marketers that have those aligned metrics and are looking at it more from that sales perspective, when they look at their marketing efforts, they also now share a common language with sales and actually makes it easier for them to engage with and align with what sales is doing. Is that, I mean, have you seen that happen in the companies you work with? Absolutely. And that's what kept me in a strong position.

[00:20:49] I mean, I've never, whenever there were marketing cuts, in fact, I was in a situation once where there were huge silos during the pandemic, for example, not silos, furloughs, rather people let go and put on pause for a long time. Not me, because I was tied to the sales team. I had a marketing title, but I was tied to the sales team because I spoke the language and it was more difficult to cut marketers off who were tied to sales.

[00:21:16] If you were in marketing and you're only talking about likes and follows and, you know, campaigns, then you're on the chopping block when things get tight, right? So you want to be as closely aligned to sales as possible. You want to speak the language. You want to create reports that mean something beyond the CMO because the CMO themselves might be on the chopping block. I was going to say, it always seems, and my background has always been in B2B sales.

[00:21:43] It always seems like the VP of sales always is way more influential than whoever's top of marketing. Yeah. It's this power dynamic that I think will continue, right? Yeah. In my book, I interviewed a friend of mine who actually has exited several companies he's built. And he talks about how the rise of the CRO, the chief revenue officer, and how the CMO rarely gets beyond that level in the C-suite.

[00:22:10] You don't see many CMOs becoming CEOs, right? CEOs typically come from VP of sales or CFOs or that's where they come from. They don't come from marketing. And a part of that is because the marketers don't speak the full business language. They speak marketing. They speak marketing. Now, the CRO, in some organizations, they're designed to sit above the CMO and the VP of sales. And in some organizations, they got rid of the CMO altogether.

[00:22:37] And they put the chief revenue officer in there to understand marketing because they came from a sales background and they speak the language. So, that's a beacon to all marketers. You know, put simply, learn how to speak the sales language. Learn how to be important beyond the CMO so that even if the CMO leaves, which I've experienced it twice, even if the CMO gets cut, you're still there. I wanted to ask you, Lee, that's fantastic advice. I wanted to ask you about the emergence of the CRO, which is still relatively new.

[00:23:07] So, this is a role of, in your experience, someone that is, you know, VP sales level, but that also understands marketing and speaks the C-suite language. Is that? And therefore, they are on top of sales and marketing. And often, if they're good enough in marketing, they just chop the CMO position altogether. Is that, would that summarize what you see in the market? Yeah, and that's the aspiration for that role. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think more CROs are tied to sales in terms of understanding. Now, that's the good part.

[00:23:37] They understand sales. How much they understand the marketing role, I think that still lacks in most cases. Now, if the organization created the CRO by finding someone, perhaps like me, who was working in marketing and in sales, that's the ideal person who understands, has a deep understanding of marketing and a deep understanding of sales. That's a great CRO.

[00:24:01] Now, if this person was previously a salesperson and just was given the sales, given the marketing team to work under them, that's going to cause problems. And I'll tell you a couple of those. First of all, marketing has a different cycle. You're not going to take marketing and see results in one week or one quarter even. That's typically sales mindset. If you take that mindset and apply it to marketing, you're going to have a lot of failures in there.

[00:24:26] So if someone is given the position of a chief revenue officer, they need to understand marketing cycles and not try to match a marketing cycle to a sales cycle. They're very different. And they're going to be really disappointed when they expect to find hard, fast numbers for some marketing metrics like you can for sales. I mean, sales is down to the decimal. Either you sold it or you didn't. Like, you know what's in the pipeline. You know what sold. These are easier to measure.

[00:24:53] If someone comes into a CRO position without understanding that marketing is much softer in terms of, you know, this is more psychology. There's more art to it. There's a longer timeline to get things to move. But it's critical that you have that in your organization. The CRO won't be successful. And they'll probably blame it on marketing rather than their lack of understanding of marketing. Yeah, I would agree 1000%. Marketing is so nuanced, creative, artistic.

[00:25:22] Obviously, there are some hard numbers, but they're, as you said, softer than those hard numbers that salespeople have that their commissions and their livelihood are based on. So one of the things that I believe you talk about in your book as well, you know, is the creation of the closed loop system as sort of the way to make a process and systemize everything we've been talking about. Can you tell my listeners what that is and what it looks like? So first, it starts off with the content creation from a marketing standpoint.

[00:25:52] And that's awareness. That's demand generation. And then that's, of course, designed to attract leads. And once you get to a lead qualification, then that should be a task for both sales and marketing to determine what they consider a good lead. Now, the reason why I say it's a task for both of them is because marketing cannot find the right people if sales isn't involved in saying who the right people are.

[00:26:18] You know, for companies who still use scoring of their leads to determine whether or not they're worthy to go to sales. When I built these scoring platforms back in the day with Marketo and with Pardot, that scoring was reviewed every quarter to six months with sales to say, is this scoring accurate to what you want to find? In other words, if marketing says, hey, on a scale of one to 100, this person is 100. That 100 must mean something to sales.

[00:26:46] Like 100 must mean that this person is, you know, whatever their sales strategy is, whether it's BANT or MEDIC, BANT being budget, authority, need, and timing. If it's 100 and they use BANT, it needs to cover all four of those things, budget, authority, need, and timing. And sales has to agree that that's what 100 is. So there's your lead qualification stage. Marketing needs to understand that based on what sales says it is.

[00:27:10] And then that critical feedback, like sales needs to say, hey, marketing, the people you think are 100 aren't our ideal customers. That person should be more like a 50 or 60, right? That's that feedback from sales to marketing. And marketing needs to say, okay, let us understand what pains you're seeing out in the field so we can update our content to make sure it matches and also review the lead quality. And then from there, you refine that message.

[00:27:37] So if sales says, hey, marketing, we're finding these objections in the field. Can you update your content or can you create new content to help us get past that objection? If your customers are saying, hey, we love your product, but it's too small to hold in our hands, then we need content that says, hey, this is, you know, this new device we added to make it easier to hold. Right. Or here's we've moved this button around.

[00:28:01] So those kind of things need to come back from sales, from maybe even your product team to say, this is new content to help you sell. And then from there, you collaborate to close the deal. Like we have a customer who's heard about us, who is considering us. How do we get them across the line? Well, marketing sends them information to say, did you know about this feature? Did you know that we have this on the product roadmap? Did you know that we just released this thing? That's marketing helping to close the deal.

[00:28:31] That's marketing being a part of the sales process to say, at this point, this customer is already here. They're already aware. They're already considering. What can we feed them that is detailed and convincing that we're better than the next, the other customer? Now, you have a customer. You analyze how do we close that deal? What worked, what didn't? And you do more of what worked, of course, and less of what didn't.

[00:28:57] And then when you have that customer, what can we do to foster them staying a customer, perhaps expanding and buying more from us? How do we keep them engaged? Just because they're a customer doesn't mean you stop marketing to them. Right. And so you create more content. And then now we're back at the beginning of the loop. You fill the loop from content creation through sales, through refinement, through analytics, and then back to the beginning of the loop again.

[00:29:23] Yeah, that's a fantastic system that I wish more companies had. And I guess for those that are listening to the end of this interview, some of this obviously is a system like what Lee just mentioned. Some of it is also just mindset. Where can I include sales as part of what I'm doing? I don't think there's many salespeople listening to this podcast, so I'm really speaking to all the marketers out there.

[00:29:45] But even if you're an entrepreneur, you don't have a sales team, but you yourself are doing sales or maybe you're outsourcing lead generation or sales, what have you, really having those conversations with anybody doing that is going to reap the benefits that we talked about here. So Lee, thank you so much. I know obviously everybody, if they're interested in learning more, should go out and buy his book, Cash. Cash, you haven't talked about Content Monsta as well, so I want to give you the chance to introduce if my listeners want to learn more about you, work with you. Where should we send them?

[00:30:15] Well, so Content Monsta, ending with the A, M-O-N-S-T-A, is my content production company. We create content for businesses. And, you know, speaking, the tie-in between that and the book was the communication part of the book was really fun to write for me because I got a chance to talk about content marketing. I think that's how you and I met, probably through content marketing events, right? Exactly. And so creating content for business is my passion. And the great part is I understand how to create that content to help move deals forward for business.

[00:30:45] It's not for likes or fame. We create content for businesses. And so Content Monsta, we have kind of niched down to multimedia content. So video, podcast, thought leadership, talking heads. It's because when we came into the game as a content agency, we realized when people talk about creating content, they almost always gravitate towards just the written word, like articles and blogs and those types of things. And those are still very relevant.

[00:31:13] But especially in the past few months, as we move forward into AI, we long for to see people, to see their faces, like what we're doing right now. We're having a conversation. What I say now, what we have in this conversation, there'll be original thoughts. There'll be said in unique and original ways. And we want to see people, like people watching this right now.

[00:31:35] So Content Monsta creates this kind of content to where we can get your CEO to actually talk to your audience or your technologist, your salespeople, to be real people and talk. So yeah, podcasts and videos, what Content Monsta creates. And I'm happy that even with the book Cash on more of a sales and marketing lane, I'm able to tie those things together and talk about both of those things. Fantastic. That's the dream, my friend. And so congratulations on that.

[00:32:02] And that is contentmonsta, M-O-N-S-T-A dot com. We'll make sure that's in the show notes. Lee, thank you so much for your time today and sharing all of your experience and expertise with my audience. Thank you, Neil. Thanks for having me. Yeah, that was really good stuff, right? Hope you enjoyed that interview. Hey, is there a topic or a guest that you want me to talk about or interview on this podcast? I would love to hear your feedback. You can reach out to me at any time on the socials or email me.

[00:32:31] Neil at neilshafer.com. I am the real Neil, folks. N-E-A-L-S-C-H-A-F-F-E-R dot com. And this is an example of an interview show. Every other show is an interview or a solo show. So I'll be back in the next few days with a solo episode. But if you haven't, I would be honored by your subscription. And if you had a chance to write a review wherever you're listening to this podcast, it really does help expose this to other people who might find value in it.

[00:32:59] So that's it for another episode of your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. This is your Digital Marketing Coach, Neil Schafer, signing off. You've been listening to your Digital Marketing Coach. Questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast.neilshafer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes at neilshafer.com to tap into the 400 plus blog posts that Neil has published to support your business.

[00:33:29] While you're there, check out Neil's Digital First Group Coaching Membership Community. If you or your business needs a little helping hand, see you next time on Your Digital Marketing Coach.