What if embracing the imperfections in your brand could make it more appealing?
Nancy Harhut, a leading expert in behavioral science and author of Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, joins us to reveal how counterintuitive marketing strategies can set your brand apart in a crowded market.
Discover the unexpected power of acknowledging flaws and strategic misspellings in capturing attention and building consumer trust. Nancy's groundbreaking insights promise to transform your approach to social media, email campaigns, and the overall customer experience by leveraging the quirks of human psychology.
Learn how to harness the potential of the Pratt-Fall effect and the door-in-the-face technique, tactics that defy conventional wisdom yet deliver impressive results. Nancy and I explore how the autonomy bias can double consumer compliance by giving them the freedom to choose, rather than directly pushing for a sale. You'll also hear about the effectiveness of follow-up communications and how subtle psychological cues, like prompts and nudges, can spur desired customer actions and elevate your marketing strategies.
Nancy's wealth of knowledge extends across various industries, offering applicable insights for everyone from marketing professionals to business owners. Behavioral science has the power to enhance your efforts in both B2B and B2C arenas. Don't miss this opportunity to rethink your marketing tactics.
Guest Links
- Connect with Nancy on LinkedIn
- Buy Using Behavioral Science in Marketing on Amazon
- Check Out Nancy's Company HBT Marketing
Learn More:
- Buy Digital Threads: https://nealschaffer.com/digitalthreadsamazon
- Buy Maximizing LinkedIn for Business Growth: https://nealschaffer.com/maximizinglinkedinamazon
- Join My Digital First Mastermind: https://nealschaffer.com/membership/
- Learn about My Fractional CMO Consulting Services: https://nealschaffer.com/cmo
- Download My Free Ebooks Here: https://nealschaffer.com/books/
- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- All My Podcast Show Notes: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
Speaker 1: Think you know the golden rules of marketing.
00:00:03
Think again.
00:00:04
In this episode we're diving into the counterintuitive
00:00:07
strategies that go against conventional wisdom but drive
00:00:11
real results.
00:00:12
From the door-in-your-face technique to strategically
00:00:15
highlighting your brand's flaws, you'll discover powerful,
00:00:19
behavioral, science-backed tactics that can transform your
00:00:22
campaigns.
00:00:23
But you got to make sure you stay tuned to this next episode
00:00:26
of the your Digital Marketing Coach podcast.
00:00:28
Speaker 2: Sem PPC email marketing, there's a lot to
00:00:31
cover.
00:00:31
Whether you're a marketing professional, entrepreneur or
00:00:49
business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert
00:00:53
advice.
00:00:53
Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neil Schaefer
00:00:59
is your digital marketing coach .
00:01:03
Helping you grow your business with digital-first marketing,
00:01:09
one episode at a time.
00:01:10
This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neal Schaefer
00:01:16
.
00:01:18
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, neal Schaefer here.
00:01:20
Welcome to another insightful episode of the your Digital
00:01:23
Marketing Coach podcast.
00:01:24
Today we delve into the world of counterintuitive marketing
00:01:28
with one of my favorite people, fellow marketing author and
00:01:31
speaker, nancy Harhut, a behavioral science expert and
00:01:35
author of Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, drive
00:01:39
Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses.
00:01:43
Nancy shares surprising strategies that defy traditional
00:01:46
marketing logic, but are proven to work thanks to principles
00:01:50
rooted in human psychology.
00:01:52
These tactics can elevate your marketing efforts, whether
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you're crafting social media posts, designing email campaigns
00:01:58
or creating unforgettable customer experiences.
00:02:01
Learn why thinking differently is the key to standing out in
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today's competitive landscape.
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Without further ado, here is my interview with Nancy Harwood.
00:02:11
Speaker 2: You're listening to your Digital Marketing Coach.
00:02:13
This is Neil Schaefer.
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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, this is Neil Schaefer.
00:02:21
Welcome to another live stream episode of the your Digital
00:02:25
Marketing Coach podcast.
00:02:26
Today we have a repeater.
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We're up to like episode 370 something and by the time this
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gets published it'll be like 380 something.
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But I've had a number of amazing guests in the past, and
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a few of them I have had the honor of having on a second time
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to continue to educate you all on what their specialty is, and
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I can't think of anyone else to bring back A few of them.
00:02:43
I have had the honor of having on a second time to continue to
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educate you all on what their specialty is, and I can't think
00:02:47
of anyone else to bring back for a second time than Nancy Harhut
00:02:51
.
00:02:51
Now, nancy is the author of Using Behavioral Science in
00:02:55
Marketing and she's going to have to correct me on the exact
00:02:56
title there, but she is someone that was actually on this
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podcast.
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We're going to have to go back to episode number 323.
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And this is back in June of 2023.
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If you look on YouTube, you can see that our video was probably
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published about a year and a half ago.
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So Nancy is someone that has done incredibly well with her
00:03:15
book.
00:03:16
She's winning book awards.
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It's a book that's really gaining traction.
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And when we talk about marketing a lot we often talk about well,
00:03:24
if you understand human psychology, you'll do really
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well.
00:03:27
Or I was at VidSummit just this week and every VidSummit I go
00:03:31
to Daryl Eves, who's the author of the YouTube formula and the
00:03:34
co-founder and the consultant, mr Beast, and everyone.
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He always in essence talks about the Maslow's hierarchy of
00:03:39
needs, of the community needs and of human intent and and
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community and the sense of belonging and all these really
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really core psychology and behavioral science aspects of
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marketing.
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That I think if we picked up a little bit and obviously picking
00:03:53
up Nancy's book is the best thing you can do, but in lieu of
00:03:55
that, having her on the show today for an encore, we're going
00:03:59
to go a different direction today.
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So without further ado, nancy, welcome to the your Digital
00:04:03
Marketing Coach podcast.
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Speaker 3: Neil, thank you so much for having me.
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I'm delighted to be here, even more delighted this time than
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last time because I'm a repeat.
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This is great, Thank you.
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Speaker 1: No, it's so awesome to have you back, and I first
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saw you on stage at Content Marketing World, immediately
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bought your book and then we had you on.
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So here we are again, and today we're going to be talking about
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, you know, not to trick people, but the counterintuitive ways
00:04:27
in which things that marketers and businesses think should work
00:04:31
that don't, and that don't work , that actually do.
00:04:34
So I'm excited to get into that , but before that, nancy, so I
00:04:37
do a.
00:04:38
You know, as part of like creating the show notes for the
00:04:40
podcast, always look for the personal website of the person
00:04:44
I'm interviewing.
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And, nancy, you're special because you are a book author,
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yet your website is your company website and actually that's
00:04:51
actually ideal because you want the book readers to go straight
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to your business website.
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So if you could give the people that weren't here for episode
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number 323, a brief introduction to who you are and your book
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and what your business does.
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Speaker 3: Sure, sure.
00:05:09
Thanks so much.
00:05:09
So my name is Nancy Harhut, I'm the author of Using Behavioral
00:05:11
Science and Marketing Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by
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Prompting Instinctive Responses, and I'm also the co-founder and
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chief creative officer of HBT Marketing.
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Hbt stands for Human Behavior Triggers, and so where the
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marketing agency and the book kind of intersect is, my
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specialty is applying behavioral science, and behavioral science
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is very simply just the study of how people behave, why they
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do what they do, and behavioral scientists have found that very
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often people don't consciously make decisions so much as use
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default decisions or decision making shortcuts.
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Much is use default decisions or decision-making shortcuts,
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and so what I like to focus on is prompting or triggering those
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decision-making shortcuts to make it easier and more likely
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that people will do what marketers want them to do.
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So that's what my agency does for clients, and that's what you
00:05:57
can find out how to do for yourself if you pick up the book
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.
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Speaker 1: Amazing, and yeah, I just had to look.
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I didn't have to go far to find the book.
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But this is it Using Behavioral Science in Marketing man.
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It is a legit almost 300-page book.
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Definitely want to pick that up .
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But getting back, you mentioned a word there that has become
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the common vocabulary of the modern marketer, which is
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prompts.
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I don't think we talked about prompts.
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Well, I mean, the thought about prompts for journals and stuff
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always was out there, but the thought about prompts in
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marketing and obviously with generative AI, Can you go a
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little bit deeper into?
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When we think about prompts, is there another way we should be
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thinking about them?
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Speaker 3: So when I use the term in the title of the book,
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it's kind of a substitute for a nudge, a prompt, kind of a guide
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, as opposed to, you know, writing the right prompts for AI
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, which has a slightly different meaning.
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Right, but basically, you know where I from, where I sit.
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We can't, as marketers, force people to do anything.
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Right, we can hope and pray and keep our fingers crossed that
00:06:55
they'll do what we want them to do, but the other thing that we
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can do is we can make it more likely that they'll do what we
00:07:01
want them to do.
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We can't guarantee that it'll happen, but when you think about
00:07:05
it, you know, if we properly target a marketing message, we,
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you know we have something that should be of interest to the
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people that are receiving it.
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So, therefore, what we need to do is we need to make sure that
00:07:16
they notice the message, that they can easily understand the
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message, that they feel that they, you know, want to respond
00:07:22
and want to respond in a timely fashion, and that they recall
00:07:25
the message.
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And so those four areas making the message stand out, making it
00:07:29
easy to understand, making people respond to it, making it
00:07:31
easy to recall those are areas where behavioral science can
00:07:34
really help marketers with some very effective ethical and
00:07:39
easy-to-apply tactics, and so that's when I talk about
00:07:43
prompting people, that's basically what I'm talking about
00:07:45
making it just a little bit more likely and sometimes a lot
00:07:48
more likely, honestly that they'll do what we want them to
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do.
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Speaker 1: Gotcha.
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So, in tactical terms, like being top of mind, showing up at
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the right place at the right time, I'm sure it's obviously
00:07:57
more than that.
00:07:57
But and also, nancy, just for everyone listening, I am not
00:08:01
going to be speaking at this year's content marketing world,
00:08:03
but I did want to tell you what I propose as a speech, which is
00:08:06
writing a book is really the ultimate form of content
00:08:08
marketing and, if there's any business thinking about it, this
00:08:12
is exactly what Nancy has done and, like I said, it doesn't
00:08:14
lead to a personal website.
00:08:15
It leads back to our business site.
00:08:16
So I'm sure someday you'll have to write a case study of the
00:08:19
business that you've gotten from your book.
00:08:20
So let's dive into this counterintuitive marketing.
00:08:24
When we were conversing about this episode, you said that some
00:08:29
counterintuitive marketing moves are actually the ones that
00:08:32
work best today.
00:08:33
So that got me like well, what am I missing out on?
00:08:36
And I'm sure that everybody listening and watching is
00:08:38
thinking the same.
00:08:39
So what are some of the counterintuitive marketing moves
00:08:43
that are proven to be best today?
00:08:45
Speaker 3: Sure.
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So one of them is you don't necessarily have to ask people
00:08:50
to buy.
00:08:51
In fact, maybe you shouldn't.
00:08:52
So you'd say to me Nancy, that is crazy.
00:08:54
I spend a lot of time and money and effort to get my marketing
00:08:57
message out there.
00:08:58
Speaker 1: No call to action, then huh.
00:09:00
Speaker 3: Right, well, you know .
00:09:01
So it's like, why would you say you know, why would you not ask
00:09:03
someone to buy?
00:09:04
Well, it's not that you don't ask someone to buy.
00:09:06
What you do is you remind them that they don't have to, so you
00:09:11
can ask them to do it.
00:09:12
But then if you follow up your request with words like but you
00:09:28
were free to choose, or but it's up to you, but the choice is
00:09:31
yours, you know, certainly it's your call.
00:09:33
You know, basically, like you know, you've just sold your
00:09:35
heart out, you've asked them to do something, and then you kind
00:09:37
of back off and say but you know , it's totally up to you.
00:09:39
You know your call, you know you're free to choose, you're
00:09:41
free to say no.
00:09:42
What that does is it triggers something that people,
00:09:45
scientists, have identified as autonomy bias, which is this
00:09:48
deep seated human desire that we all have to feel some kind of
00:09:53
control over ourselves and our environment.
00:09:54
We don't like to feel like we're backed into a corner.
00:09:56
We don't like to feel like we're being forced into
00:09:58
something.
00:09:58
We like to feel that we're the ones making the choices, calling
00:10:01
the shots.
00:10:02
You know, kind of determining, you know our path forward.
00:10:05
And so, simply by reminding people but you are free to
00:10:08
choose.
00:10:09
Behavioral scientists have found that on average on average, you
00:10:13
can double the likelihood that people will do what you're
00:10:15
asking them to do.
00:10:16
And there was one study that came out of the University of
00:10:19
Bordeaux wine country came out of the University of Bordeaux,
00:10:23
but it had nothing to do with wine.
00:10:24
These researchers were hanging out at a bus station and they
00:10:27
were kind of panhandling and they would approach other people
00:10:30
at the bus station and say, excuse me, do you have some
00:10:32
coins for the bus please?
00:10:33
Or they would say, excuse me, do you have some coins for the
00:10:36
bus please?
00:10:36
But you're free to accept or refuse.
00:10:38
And what they found was they got four times as many people
00:10:42
four times as many people to give them money and, on average
00:10:46
people, each individual contribution was larger than
00:10:49
when they didn't use the.
00:10:50
But hey, you're free to basically ignore me.
00:10:52
So it's really fascinating, it's powerful and it is kind of
00:10:58
surprising and counterintuitive.
00:10:59
Like why would you ever think that, after you've just laid out
00:11:02
your whole case and you've had your call to action, that you
00:11:05
would then slip in the?
00:11:06
But you know what it's up to you.
00:11:08
You know, like why would we do that?
00:11:10
But it works.
00:11:11
Speaker 1: Nancy, you know I've always thought like I hate being
00:11:14
told what to do.
00:11:15
Does this sort of tie into it that we all sort of have that in
00:11:18
us but we might know if it's something special, an offer or
00:11:22
something, we might want to do it, but by reminding us of it
00:11:27
but then saying, hey, if you miss out now, I may do this
00:11:29
again next year.
00:11:30
I'm sure there's a language, almost a conversational language
00:11:33
, that you can use to say you're not forced into this, but if
00:11:37
you don't do now, the next chance may not be for a few
00:11:40
months.
00:11:40
Is that sort of the language that you're recommending your
00:11:42
clients to use?
00:11:46
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that's very interesting, because what
00:11:47
you're doing there is you're pairing two behavioral science
00:11:49
techniques, which is very smart, right, there's autonomy bias.
00:11:50
Like you're saying, we hate to be told what to do, we don't
00:11:52
like to be forced into things.
00:11:53
So you know basically saying, hey, listen, this is what I'm
00:11:56
asking you to do, but it's up to you.
00:11:57
But then you nicely link that to however, if you don't do it
00:12:02
now, we're not going to make this offer again for another
00:12:05
year, or something like that.
00:12:06
So now you're providing the reason that they should do it
00:12:09
now and you're adding in a little bit of loss aversion.
00:12:12
It's like, oh, wait a minute, if I don't do it now, I won't
00:12:14
get the chance for a whole year.
00:12:15
Maybe I better do it now.
00:12:17
But even with you know, with those two things together, the
00:12:20
person is still feeling it's their decision, they, the person
00:12:25
is still feeling it's their decision.
00:12:26
They're not feeling pushed or pressured.
00:12:27
They're feeling they've got the information and they're making
00:12:29
the call.
00:12:29
They're deciding ah, based on that, I think I will do this now
00:12:32
.
00:12:32
So that's a really nice way of linking both the idea of kind of
00:12:36
loss aversion with this idea of autonomy, because, as you say,
00:12:40
people don't like to be told what to do, they want to call
00:12:42
the shots.
00:12:43
Speaker 1: And I think when you offer in that way, it also and
00:12:46
maybe this is part of the behavioral science it also
00:12:49
sounds more authentic Like they're being open with me about
00:12:53
what's going on, and I'm sure that's part of it.
00:12:55
I'm sure there's a lot of things we can dive deep into.
00:12:57
But yeah, it's funny, nancy, because I am coming out it's
00:13:00
funny Before digital threads.
00:13:01
I'm actually coming out with about a hundred page mini book
00:13:04
on LinkedIn and I plan to sell it for 99.
00:13:07
It's always been a free download, but I added 75% more
00:13:09
content.
00:13:09
I plan to sell it for 99 cents on Amazon, but I plan to offer
00:13:13
it to my list for free after a month.
00:13:16
So I plan to be and so this is very top of mind because I plan
00:13:19
to send out this email like the next week like, hey, you can get
00:13:21
it on Amazon for 99 cents or you can wait until November and
00:13:24
it'll be free.
00:13:25
It's really your choice.
00:13:26
But obviously, if you feel there's value, you know I'd be
00:13:30
honored for a 99 cent tip or whatever.
00:13:31
That is Right.
00:13:32
So that sounds like unintentionally.
00:13:34
It's playing into what you're talking about.
00:13:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, what's nice about that too, is you're
00:13:38
being very upfront about it and you're saying, hey, listen, if
00:13:41
you want it now, it's not that much money and you can have it
00:13:43
in your you know your hot little hands today and start to
00:13:45
benefit from it, right.
00:13:46
But on the other hand, I do want to let you know that a
00:13:48
month from now, you can get it for free, so like if you hadn't
00:13:58
said that and people bought it.
00:13:59
I mean it's 99 cents.
00:14:01
It's not like it was your.
00:14:01
You know their life.
00:14:02
I, you know, I'm one of his people, you know.
00:14:04
So, by being upfront with them, by being honest with them, by
00:14:08
being very transparent, you know you're, you're furthering that
00:14:11
trust, furthering that relationship and you're yeah,
00:14:12
you're giving them the choice.
00:14:13
And some people are like you know, that's great, but I want
00:14:16
it now.
00:14:16
Or you know what?
00:14:17
He worked hard on this, he deserves to be paid.
00:14:19
You know, whatever their decision, but you know, but
00:14:21
you're giving them the choice and they're making the decision.
00:14:24
That's great.
00:14:25
Speaker 1: So, yeah, you know a lot of this well.
00:14:27
I mean, behavioral science is obviously a science, but there's
00:14:30
a lot of also.
00:14:30
I think you know common sense and I think we're going to get
00:14:32
into more counterintuitive marketing that just you know,
00:14:35
like treat people like you want to be treated, right, like how
00:14:38
would you feel if we were on the other end?
00:14:39
And that's always at the back of my mind, at least with my
00:14:41
community, with my list.
00:14:42
So let's dive a little bit deeper.
00:14:44
That was great advice and I can see how that could be leveraged
00:14:49
really, really easily by everyone listening, whether it
00:14:52
is the language in a lead magnet pop-up, a promotional email, a
00:14:57
landing page offer, that's immediately actionable.
00:15:00
So thank you for that.
00:15:01
Any other one or two counterintuitive things that you
00:15:05
could think about at the top of your head that have been really
00:15:07
successful recently.
00:15:09
Speaker 3: So there's another one I think this would be
00:15:10
particularly helpful for people in sales and it's called the
00:15:15
door in your face technique.
00:15:16
And I know you're thinking like , oh my God, nancy, that just
00:15:18
sounds miserable.
00:15:18
Why would you be recommending a door in your face technique?
00:15:21
But the way it works is you basically make a request that
00:15:25
you know people are gonna refuse , or that you expect that
00:15:29
they're gonna refuse, and then what happens is you immediately
00:15:32
pivot to a lesser request which is essentially the one you
00:15:36
originally wanted to make.
00:15:37
And what behavioral scientists have found is when you do that,
00:15:41
people are much more likely to say yes to the second request.
00:15:44
Because, you know, over the centuries and centuries and
00:15:47
centuries, you know, as we've evolved as humans, it's been
00:15:50
very important to us to get along, to cooperate Right, and
00:15:53
so, as a result, we don't like to just repeatedly say no to
00:15:56
people, you know, it just doesn't feel right.
00:15:58
And so if you, you know, if you start with a large request,
00:16:01
people might be like, I don't want to do that, you know.
00:16:03
But then, if you immediately follow with a lesser one, it's
00:16:06
like, well, okay, I can do that.
00:16:07
You know people feel like, well , you've conceded a little bit
00:16:09
and there was actually a study it was done with.
00:16:14
People went out, researchers went out and they were asking
00:16:16
people if they would.
00:16:17
First they went out and they asked them if they would take a
00:16:21
group of juvenile delinquents to the zoo for a Saturday
00:16:24
afternoon.
00:16:24
And almost everybody said no.
00:16:26
I mean, they didn't know who these kids were.
00:16:28
And it's like why would I spend a Saturday afternoon taking
00:16:30
juvenile delinquents to the zoo, right?
00:16:31
Then they went out and they repeated the study and they
00:16:34
asked people oh, how would you feel about spending two hours a
00:16:38
week for the next two years counseling juvenile delinquents?
00:16:41
And again people were like no, I don't want to do that, that's
00:16:45
a huge ask, I'm not going to do that.
00:16:47
And then what they did is they went out a third time, but they
00:16:50
paired them.
00:16:50
They paired the two requests.
00:16:52
So they went out and they said to people would you be willing
00:16:54
to volunteer two hours a week for the next two years
00:16:57
counseling juvenile delinquents?
00:16:59
And, as you might imagine, neil , people were like no, no, I
00:17:01
can't.
00:17:02
And they said well, how about this?
00:17:03
Would you be willing to take one Saturday afternoon and go to
00:17:07
the zoo with them?
00:17:07
And here people said yes.
00:17:10
Like you know, they got this huge increase, you know, whereas
00:17:13
when the question had been asked by itself, would you go to
00:17:15
the zoo with them?
00:17:16
Nobody wanted to.
00:17:16
But when the question followed on the heels of, you know,
00:17:20
spending two hours a week for the next two years, people were
00:17:22
like no, like well, how about a day at the zoo?
00:17:23
It's like sure, I'll do that, you know.
00:17:25
I think they got like a 30% uptick.
00:17:27
So it's just this about replacing.
00:17:31
You know I sell computers.
00:17:33
Let's replace all of the computers in your company with
00:17:36
the ones that I'm selling, you know.
00:17:37
And somebody might be like, ah, that's kind of a big ask.
00:17:39
I don't know if I can get that through.
00:17:40
So then maybe I say, well, all right, why don't we choose one
00:17:43
department as a pilot right?
00:17:44
Should it be HR or should it be marketing right?
00:17:47
Want to do is we want to have our first request not
00:17:49
necessarily be the one we want people to say yes to, but have
00:17:52
that second request be the one that we were really hoping to
00:18:02
get the yes to, you know.
00:18:04
So it's an interesting technique.
00:18:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering, you know, if that plays out
00:18:08
something like and I love to just like dumb this down for
00:18:10
marketing, but like an abandoned cart email, like they wanted to
00:18:13
buy the whole thing for whatever reason.
00:18:15
They didn't, but by just offering a little nudge like,
00:18:17
hey, here's 10% off, free shipping, whatever it is, and
00:18:20
how that's so successful for so many companies.
00:18:22
Is that sort of tied into that?
00:18:24
And then also the concept of the follow-up.
00:18:26
And obviously in sales you know you reach out the first time,
00:18:28
you don't get a response, reach out the second time.
00:18:30
I now, nancy, you must get pitched a lot as well, but I get
00:18:33
pitched like hey, can I be on your blog, your podcast?
00:18:35
And I recently get these emails that say re colon, as if they
00:18:40
had originally written me an email that I didn't respond to
00:18:42
when they didn't because I went through my history.
00:18:44
I never received anything, but you sort of feel bad that you
00:18:46
didn't respond the first time.
00:18:47
And I tell brands that work with influencers always the
00:18:51
values and the follow up right.
00:18:53
A lot of influencers may not even look at the first request,
00:18:55
but when you send that second one you'll often get a response.
00:18:59
I'm wondering if all of this sort of plays in this concept,
00:19:01
or is this mirroring or borderline another concept?
00:19:05
Speaker 3: So well, no, I mean, I think it's interesting the
00:19:07
idea of I didn't say yes the first time, I didn't answer your
00:19:10
email the first time, so now I'm kind of resending it like re
00:19:13
my first request, and I think there is something to that.
00:19:16
I mean, I guess there's two things there.
00:19:17
One is I do think it ties into this idea of you know, if we
00:19:20
said no the first time, we're much more likely to say yes with
00:19:23
a follow up request.
00:19:24
Separate from that is the inauthenticity of sending the re
00:19:28
when there was never a first one to begin with.
00:19:30
Speaker 1: You know, it's like I don't respond yeah, exactly.
00:19:32
Speaker 3: Right, it's a separate conversation.
00:19:33
You're like wait a minute.
00:19:34
First you feel bad like I didn't respond, then you're like
00:19:36
wait a minute, you never sent me the first one.
00:19:38
Speaker 1: Nice, try yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker 3: So that's kind of like.
00:19:40
It's like yes, you can maybe win the battle but lose the war
00:19:44
on that one.
00:19:46
You get them to open it, but then there's a little bit of bad
00:19:50
taste there.
00:19:50
But the idea, if somebody didn't respond the first time
00:19:53
and you do have to follow up and the truth is people are busy
00:19:56
and you know, sometimes things get by them or sometimes they
00:19:58
mean to respond and they just don't get to it.
00:20:00
And the next thing, you know that second you know this has
00:20:02
happened to me I'll get an email .
00:20:03
I got to get back to that person and I'll even flag it or
00:20:06
star it.
00:20:06
So I remember I've got to get back to it, you know.
00:20:08
And then a week passes and I haven't, and the follow-up comes
00:20:11
, and you know, and they say, oh , I just wanted to see.
00:20:13
And what happens, neil, I immediately respond.
00:20:17
At that point.
00:20:17
You know, I had always meant to .
00:20:18
I just got really, really busy.
00:20:20
But when that second one comes, I literally stop what I'm doing
00:20:23
and respond right away.
00:20:25
You know which is what I didn't do with the first one, for
00:20:28
whatever reason, I was too busy, you know.
00:20:29
But I make the time on the second one.
00:20:30
Because one?
00:20:35
Because, yeah, I think that's what's going on.
00:20:36
Speaker 1: It's like we feel bad and like, oh all right, I've
00:20:37
got to fix this.
00:20:38
And I will say I don't have the data, but I did a lot of
00:20:39
outreach for digital threads and even if I didn't get a response
00:20:43
a second time, I ended up getting.
00:20:45
It might've passed the deadline , but I ended up getting one a
00:20:47
week, two weeks, a month, two months later the other said, oh,
00:20:50
I'm really sorry, I had a baby, I brought a baby into the world
00:20:53
.
00:20:53
People have stuff going on so.
00:20:57
But yeah, the follow-up is so key so I wanted to go a little
00:21:01
bit further here.
00:21:09
Before the interview, you were saying that there are some
00:21:10
proven brain, science-backed tactics to increase the
00:21:11
engagement and response to your marketing message.
00:21:13
So I'm thinking everyone out there that is doing like a
00:21:16
Facebook ad, where it's an image and a very, very short caption,
00:21:19
or the call to action in that promotional email or that social
00:21:22
media post.
00:21:23
What are we missing out on?
00:21:26
And I think you've already given us some clues, but
00:21:28
sticking with this sort of counterintuitive marketing theme
00:21:30
, what else can we be doing that is backed by science, yet we
00:21:34
may not have even thought about doing?
00:21:36
Speaker 3: Well, you know, there's an interesting one
00:21:38
called the Pratt-Fall effect, and this was identified by a
00:21:43
Harvard professor named Elliot Aronson and he did some research
00:21:46
.
00:21:46
So essentially, the Pratt-Fall effect is we kind of, as brands,
00:21:51
identify one of our shortcomings, like we don't try
00:21:54
to hide it, we actually highlight it, which is kind of
00:21:57
again, kind of a counterintuitive, surprising
00:21:59
thing.
00:21:59
Like you know, with all the good stuff I have to say about
00:22:01
my brand, why would I also bring up something that's not so
00:22:05
great?
00:22:06
You know, why don't I just focus on the good stuff?
00:22:08
I'm not saying that this not so great thing doesn't exist, but
00:22:11
why should I mention it?
00:22:12
Right?
00:22:13
But Aronson ran this experiment and he has this guy who's going
00:22:17
to audition for this quiz show, but he feeds the guy all of the
00:22:21
answers ahead of time and then he tapes the guy going through
00:22:25
the audition and surprise, surprise, he answers virtually
00:22:27
every question correctly, right, and then at the end of the
00:22:30
interview you hear him.
00:22:31
You don't see him, but you can hear him.
00:22:33
You hear him stand up.
00:22:35
He apparently knocks his cup of coffee on himself and he says,
00:22:39
oh my gosh, I just spilled coffee all over my suit.
00:22:41
So now Aronson has this tape, this audio tape and he plays it
00:22:47
two ways he plays the whole thing and then he cuts it off
00:22:50
just before the guy goes oh my God, I just spilled coffee all
00:22:53
over my suit or he plays it with the full, full audio.
00:22:56
And he asked people to, you know, give their impressions of
00:23:00
the guy.
00:23:01
And in both cases everyone thought the guy was smart.
00:23:03
I mean, he answered all the questions.
00:23:04
But in the second case, when they heard him spill the coffee,
00:23:07
they felt that he was, I don't know, just a nicer guy, a more
00:23:13
likable guy.
00:23:14
They identified with him more.
00:23:15
And so what Aronson did is he identified something called the
00:23:20
Pratt-Fall effect, where it's this idea that people actually
00:23:24
kind of like us better if we cop to you know something that's
00:23:28
not so great about our product or service.
00:23:29
Now, obviously, if you're a car manufacturer and your car
00:23:33
crashes all the time, that would not be something you'd want to
00:23:36
be talking about, you know.
00:23:37
But think about, like VW, where they come out with this car
00:23:40
that's very, very small.
00:23:41
It was a fine car, but it was smaller than you know, than most
00:23:46
of the cars around at the time.
00:23:47
So, you know, they had, you know, really tall basketball
00:23:50
players trying to get in the car .
00:23:52
That was one of their ads.
00:23:52
They had a car you know that picture of it with the headline
00:23:55
lemon.
00:23:55
You know more currently we think about Heinz ketchup.
00:23:58
It's hard to get it out of the bottle, it takes time, so they
00:24:02
celebrate that.
00:24:03
I mean it doesn't doesn't mean that their ketchup doesn't taste
00:24:05
good.
00:24:05
It's like I think it's the number one selling ketchup in
00:24:07
the world.
00:24:07
But it's a little bit harder to get it out of the bottle.
00:24:09
So they do things with it.
00:24:11
They, you know, did an ad where they had anticipation as the
00:24:14
background music.
00:24:15
They did another ad where they actually put a label on the
00:24:18
bottle and in order for the label to be upright, the bottle
00:24:22
had to be at the precise right angle to get the ketchup coming
00:24:25
out of the bottle, you know.
00:24:26
So they played with it, they did something with it.
00:24:28
So it's this idea that you know , if you have something that's
00:24:32
not so great, it's okay to mention it.
00:24:35
In fact, lean into it, embrace it, because people actually
00:24:37
could end up preferring your brand more because of it.
00:24:41
Speaker 1: That's really fascinating and I think that
00:24:43
speaks to a lot of human nature, almost that we're sort of
00:24:47
programmed to expect that whenever we see an advertisement
00:24:50
it's only going to show the good, the perfect, the ideal,
00:24:54
and in reality we also know that that's probably not the case.
00:24:56
So maybe seeing a dose of that reality raises that trust factor
00:25:00
.
00:25:00
And, like I said, I'm not a scientist by any means, but I
00:25:03
can see that and it's funny.
00:25:04
I grew up watching that Heinz commercial, the anticipation
00:25:08
it's making, and I never thought about that Right, but it's true
00:25:12
, you do have to wait for it to get and you got to put your
00:25:14
knife in and you know when you're at the Denny's and anyway
00:25:17
.
00:25:18
But what's really fascinating and I'm really curious, before
00:25:21
we get to you know some final questions when you work with
00:25:24
companies, because for every sort of marketing angle that I'm
00:25:28
throwing out to you, you have like a data back experiment or a
00:25:32
story that really illustrates what should be done.
00:25:35
So when clients come to you and I'm curious, you know some of
00:25:37
the enterprises and other businesses listening to this
00:25:40
when they come to you, are you doing like a behavioral science
00:25:43
audit or do you start with?
00:25:44
You know what is one channel or one campaign?
00:25:49
I mean, how do you because there's such a big scale of how
00:25:52
brands communicate with people where do you even start this
00:25:55
process when companies come to you?
00:25:56
Or are they coming to you saying, hey, we have a new
00:25:59
campaign, we want to see if we work with you, if we can get
00:26:01
better results from this campaign than our benchmark KPIs
00:26:04
?
00:26:04
What is sort of the process?
00:26:05
Just out of curiosity.
00:26:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean, it's a great question actually.
00:26:08
And you're right, there's.
00:26:09
You know, there are so many behavioral science principles
00:26:12
out there.
00:26:12
It's like how do you figure this out?
00:26:15
So largely it depends on what the clients come to us with.
00:26:19
Sometimes, a client will come to us and they'll have a very
00:26:21
specific ask.
00:26:23
They'll say listen, we have a need to have an email campaign
00:26:27
done, or we have a need to do an integrated campaign with email,
00:26:29
direct mail, landing page and social.
00:26:31
And our goal is to I don't know increase the number of people
00:26:34
who buy life insurance or increase the number of people
00:26:36
who enroll in their company's 401k plan, whatever it is.
00:26:39
And we want you to, you know, give us a behaviorally
00:26:43
science-driven approach.
00:26:44
You know we want you to create the copy and the art direction
00:26:48
that's going to trigger some of these prompts or nudges.
00:26:51
Other times, clients will come to us and say you know what?
00:26:53
Here's all the work we've been doing.
00:26:55
It's been doing okay, but we think it probably could do
00:26:58
better if you could show us where to infuse some behavioral
00:27:02
signs.
00:27:02
And what we'll do is we'll do an audit and we'll identify
00:27:05
missed opportunities.
00:27:06
We'll identify places where it looks like something's really
00:27:08
strong.
00:27:09
We'll talk about maybe some places.
00:27:12
You know you're saying it, but you're not quite saying it the
00:27:14
right way.
00:27:15
If you replace this word or phrase with this word or phrase,
00:27:17
you know, you'd probably do better.
00:27:18
You know, and other times, companies will come to us and
00:27:20
say you know, teach us, teach us how to do this, come in and do
00:27:23
a training you know program with us so that we can, as you know,
00:27:27
as routinely as possible, add these kinds of things in when
00:27:31
we're doing our own work.
00:27:31
So, and other times, clients will come to us and say this is
00:27:34
our best performing piece, go up against it and see if you can
00:27:36
beat it.
00:27:37
So it really depends.
00:27:38
You know, it's kind of been all over the board, from creating
00:27:41
brand new campaigns to doing audits, to helping them, you
00:27:45
know, figure out how to do it themselves.
00:27:47
Speaker 1: Do you see any trends in brands that reach out to you
00:27:50
, more consumer focused, more B2B?
00:27:52
Or you know more brands, more agencies, or is it really just
00:27:55
all over the map?
00:28:04
Speaker 3: It's funny.
00:28:04
I think the thread is brands, where the marketers want some
00:28:05
kind of a competitive advantage and understand that knowing how
00:28:08
people behave is going to be critical.
00:28:09
So not long after writing the book, we picked up some business
00:28:13
from a really large pharmaceutical company, like,
00:28:16
okay, that was kind of the first time we were up some business
00:28:18
from a really large pharmaceutical company.
00:28:19
Like okay, that was kind of the first time we were in
00:28:20
pharmaceuticals.
00:28:20
We do a lot of work in financial services and a lot of
00:28:22
work in insurance and I think that's largely as we look at it
00:28:27
at the agency.
00:28:27
As we look at it, it's because we started with one company.
00:28:31
People then moved to other companies.
00:28:33
They took us with them, then they moved and it's that kind of
00:28:36
a thing.
00:28:37
So it's like you could trace it back to that one engagement,
00:28:39
that one client that moved on.
00:28:42
We do kind of a mix of B2B and B2C and you know we did some
00:28:46
work recently from an airport which was a first for me I'd
00:28:50
never done any work for an airport, but it was actually
00:28:52
Manchester, new Hampshire airport and they were like
00:28:54
listen, you know people keep going down to Logan but they
00:28:57
live closer to us Like we need to do something about this.
00:29:00
So, you know, we did some research, we found out, you know
00:29:03
, what people were thinking, what was driving their decisions
00:29:05
.
00:29:05
We identified, kind of the, the kind of the barriers to using
00:29:10
the airport that was closer, and then we created a campaign
00:29:13
based on proven behavioral science techniques that was
00:29:16
designed to get people to reconsider that airport.
00:29:18
So there's a variety of industries that we work for B2C,
00:29:23
b2b, even some non-for-profit.
00:29:26
Speaker 1: That's really fascinating, but obviously it's
00:29:28
how do we get people to act right?
00:29:30
And that's just a core, the human condition right, which
00:29:33
ties into psychology and everything else you're doing.
00:29:35
So I wanted to end with another question, and before the
00:29:38
interview you were talking about how there's a lot of things
00:29:41
that marketers think are bad moves but they actually make you
00:29:45
money and I think you know, just instinctively I think of
00:29:49
like pop-ups, like pop-up windows, hate them, but I know
00:29:52
they're effective.
00:29:52
Cold outreach emails is another one where ethically I really do
00:29:56
not like them, but I know that people that do them really well
00:29:58
end up like doing really well with them.
00:30:00
So I don't know if that's the direction you're going to go,
00:30:03
but love some advice for the marketers and businesses,
00:30:06
listening on some things they may be avoiding but maybe they
00:30:09
shouldn't be.
00:30:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, listening on some things they may be avoiding
00:30:12
, but maybe they shouldn't be.
00:30:12
Yeah, so here's one.
00:30:13
One of the things that we're taught is to quality control.
00:30:16
Proofread our marketing messages before we go out with
00:30:19
them, right Before we run the ad , before we send out the email,
00:30:23
before we post on social and if anyone's ever heard me speak at
00:30:27
a conference, it's very possible that you've heard me say this
00:30:29
is important.
00:30:30
And it's important not because people don't make mistakes, not
00:30:34
because your audience won't forgive you if you have a typo.
00:30:38
They themselves have probably made a typo.
00:30:40
We get it.
00:30:41
It's important because people think, hmm, if they didn't catch
00:30:45
that, what else did they not catch?
00:30:47
Right?
00:30:47
It comes back to the quality control thing, and so I've
00:30:50
always said, like, be very, very careful, because you know that
00:30:55
little misspelled word or misused word can open the door
00:30:59
to people thinking I don't know, maybe the quality is not as
00:31:03
good, maybe the service isn't going to be as good.
00:31:04
So it's going to come as a surprise to you, neil, when I
00:31:06
say that one of the things that I now recommend people do is to
00:31:10
strategically misspell or misuse a word, and the reason for this
00:31:16
is it surprises people, right, it captures their attention.
00:31:19
They're like reading something and it's like, oh, wait, a
00:31:20
minute, they used the wrong word or, ooh, they have a
00:31:22
misspelling here.
00:31:23
But if you quickly pay it off so people understand why you've
00:31:28
gotten this incredible bump in interest.
00:31:30
Researchers at University of Glasgow found that when people
00:31:34
are surprised, it increases their emotions by about 400%.
00:31:37
And the reason that's important to us as marketers is when
00:31:40
we're in this excited state, this elevated emotional state,
00:31:44
we pay more attention to the thing that surprised us and
00:31:47
we're more likely to remember it .
00:31:49
And what do we as marketers want?
00:31:50
We want people to pay attention .
00:31:51
We want them to remember our marketing message.
00:31:53
So not that long ago I received a email from a retailer and the
00:31:59
subject line said it's been a long winter, l-a-w-n.
00:32:03
It's been a long winter.
00:32:04
And I immediately thought that's weird.
00:32:06
They wanted to say it's been a long winter, right, it's been a
00:32:08
long winter.
00:32:09
And I wonder if they were using like voice dictation or
00:32:15
something and somebody's accent or what.
00:32:16
But then I took another, you know, I took a closer look and
00:32:17
it was from the patio department which sells lawn furniture at
00:32:20
Sears.
00:32:21
So I right away got it.
00:32:22
But it stopped me and you know, and that's the other thing, you
00:32:26
know, people love to be kind of in on the joke, we love to
00:32:29
figure things out, we love to, you know, just get involved and
00:32:33
participate right, participate in the message.
00:32:35
And it's like, oh, I get it, you know.
00:32:37
So it caught my attention because I thought it was the
00:32:39
wrong word and then I immediately said, oh, wait a
00:32:45
minute, it's coming from the patio department, I get it.
00:32:46
So I think that was a great example.
00:32:47
And I don't, you know, I don't know if they had read my book or
00:32:49
, you know, they just happened upon this, but I thought it was
00:32:52
a great example of, you know, deliberately and strategically,
00:32:56
you know, misspelling or misusing a word in order to get
00:32:59
that.
00:32:59
You know that pop of attention, that surprise and the you know,
00:33:02
the associated focus and recall that comes with it.
00:33:05
So again, I don't recommend not proofreading.
00:33:09
I you know, if you're going to use this technique, you want to
00:33:12
do it strategically, but it's kind of a counterintuitive, kind
00:33:15
of a surprising thing to be recommending to clients, but
00:33:18
upon occasion I do.
00:33:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, I've actually heard that advice.
00:33:22
Some Facebook marketing experts and this is like several years
00:33:25
ago like, like, misspell a word in your captions, you're just
00:33:29
going to get a ton of engagement .
00:33:30
Like, hey, you misspelled that word.
00:33:31
It was not done as strategically as you're talking
00:33:33
about.
00:33:33
But it's that human emotion of like hey, you know, maybe they
00:33:37
didn't realize this, maybe they forgot, and just pointing that
00:33:40
out will, and with the way that algorithms work, obviously when
00:33:43
you get a comment, the algorithm doesn't care whether it was
00:33:45
misspelled or not.
00:33:46
So I can see how that can be used very strategically.
00:33:48
But you have to be strategic because if people take it the
00:33:51
wrong way then, as you said, it can absolutely go against you.
00:33:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to your point too.
00:33:56
It's like we all like to be the one who's right, so we love to
00:33:59
say you rushed to.
00:34:00
Oh, Nancy, did you know you had a misspelling?
00:34:02
But I think, like you said, if you do it strategically, before
00:34:05
they rush to say you misspelled something, they get it.
00:34:14
Speaker 1: They're like part of it and it's like, oh, kind of
00:34:15
cool.
00:34:15
You know, yeah, and I think people also like to know, and
00:34:17
you can correct me on this but that you know people aren't
00:34:18
perfect and they expect businesses are going to be
00:34:19
perfect and when they're not, obviously you don't want a
00:34:21
quality control issue with your core product or service, but in
00:34:24
a message it's sort of I don't know, maybe it makes people feel
00:34:27
better that, oh, I'm not the only one who's not perfect.
00:34:29
Yeah.
00:34:29
I don't know.
00:34:30
Speaker 3: I guess there's so many different ways we can take
00:34:31
this, but it almost circles back to the pratfall effect where
00:34:34
again you know you're not perfect and that's okay, because
00:34:37
maybe you're a little bit more likable when you're not perfect.
00:34:41
Speaker 1: Right, so you know counterintuitive marketing.
00:34:43
I feel, nancy, talking to you, we can go on for hours and
00:34:45
you're just like like pulling these case studies and examples
00:34:49
from your bag of tricks with little time needed and little
00:34:53
effort, but any other key sort of counterintuitive marketing
00:34:58
topics or ideas or tips that you can offer the audience before
00:35:01
we close out today.
00:35:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the overarching thing we want
00:35:05
people to remember is the overarching thing we want
00:35:08
marketers to remember is that people don't make decisions the
00:35:11
way we think they do.
00:35:11
We, you know, we often think if we just give them the right
00:35:14
information and it gets them at the right time, they'll make the
00:35:18
right decision.
00:35:19
And the truth of the matter is very often people are cruising
00:35:22
along on autopilot.
00:35:23
They're you know, they're not really thinking things through,
00:35:25
they're just responding automatically, instinctively,
00:35:27
reflexively.
00:35:28
And so as marketers, we want to use that and we want to infuse
00:35:33
our messages with these little triggers or prompts or nudges
00:35:37
that will make it more likely that people will do what we want
00:35:39
them to do.
00:35:39
So one more counterintuitive example is the idea of limiting
00:35:44
what we'll sell people.
00:35:45
So obviously we're in business to make sales, that's how we
00:35:49
make money.
00:35:49
So why would I say to you well, you know what limit, the amount
00:35:53
somebody can buy?
00:35:53
Clearly, you know you want to sell it all.
00:35:56
You know it's like I got, I've got inventory, I'd love to sell
00:35:58
it out.
00:35:59
The faster I sell it off, better it is for me Right.
00:36:01
So why would I say we'll put a good price, you know, and on
00:36:09
average, people bought about three cans of it, but then they
00:36:12
put up a sign that said limit 12 .
00:36:14
And on average, people bought 7.3 cans of it, right, Wow.
00:36:19
It was because of the limit, you know.
00:36:21
Suddenly people saw oh okay, maybe you know, maybe people
00:36:25
really buy a lot of soup, maybe I don't usually buy as much as I
00:36:28
should.
00:36:28
I should get more.
00:36:29
Or gosh, maybe I better get this now, before it's gone, you
00:36:32
know, they might run out.
00:36:33
It's just funny.
00:36:34
But by putting that anchor in there, that idea of limit of 12,
00:36:38
it suddenly got people to buy more.
00:36:40
The price didn't change, the product didn't change, but
00:36:43
purchase behavior did.
00:36:44
So it's just the you know, it's this kind of appreciation of the
00:36:48
fact that people don't always make the most well-thought-out,
00:36:51
well-considered decisions.
00:36:51
When they bought the three cans , if you asked them why they
00:36:54
would have said I need three cans of soup.
00:36:56
Then, when they ended up seeing the limit of 12, they bought
00:36:59
more.
00:36:59
If you ask them why they may not have said well, I could only
00:37:02
buy 12, so I'm buying seven.
00:37:03
They'd somehow rationalize it.
00:37:06
They'd probably say, oh well, I needed seven.
00:37:07
Or you know, I need a few right now, but I figured I'd put a
00:37:10
few in the cupboard for later.
00:37:11
They'd come up with some rational reason for why they did
00:37:13
what they did.
00:37:14
But the truth is because the experiment proved it.
00:37:17
The truth is, what made them buy more was just the fact that
00:37:20
they could only buy up to 12.
00:37:22
So we just have to, as marketers, appreciate that not
00:37:25
everyone's as rational and thoughtful as we like to think
00:37:29
they are.
00:37:34
Speaker 1: Great example and I think you know.
00:37:35
To summarize what you were saying, what you began that last
00:37:36
statement about is that people are sort of running on autopilot
00:37:38
and sometimes marketers, unfortunately, run on autopilot.
00:37:41
They want to get this clean, automated system and sometimes
00:37:45
it's best if we go off autopilot and, as you said, take
00:37:48
advantage of the fact that most people are still on autopilot
00:37:52
and what we can do to not disrupt it but to leverage that
00:37:55
for our own good.
00:37:55
So tons of ideas.
00:37:57
Obviously, if you want more ideas, make sure you pick up
00:38:00
Nancy Harha, using Behavioral Science and Marketing, published
00:38:03
on Kogan Page.
00:38:03
You can buy this wherever fine books are sold.
00:38:05
It's still a relatively.
00:38:07
I want to say.
00:38:07
This was published in 2022, was it?
00:38:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, august of 2022.
00:38:11
Yeah.
00:38:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, so still really new really.
00:38:14
I mean, it's based on these core principles that do not aid.
00:38:18
So you're not too late to the game.
00:38:20
Make sure you pick it up.
00:38:20
Connect with Nancy on LinkedIn.
00:38:22
Reach out to her company.
00:38:23
We'll put all the links in the show notes.
00:38:25
But, nancy, thank you so much.
00:38:27
This has been awesome.
00:38:28
Any closing thoughts for our listeners?
00:38:28
Well, thank you so much, this has been awesome.
00:38:29
Any closing thoughts for our listeners?
00:38:31
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much.
00:38:32
I've totally enjoyed this.
00:38:33
Thank you for letting me spend some time with your listeners
00:38:35
and with you, and I think you know the closing thought is just
00:38:39
remember that people don't think the way they think they
00:38:41
think, and so, as a result, you know we can get out ahead of
00:38:45
that as marketers, and it's easy enough to do and it's effective
00:38:49
to use these behavioral science principles and it's ethical to
00:38:51
do them because you know you're going to use them.
00:38:53
That information, and if we serve it up the right way, with
00:38:57
the right words and phrases, we're much more likely to get
00:39:16
that engagement and response we're looking for.
00:39:19
Speaker 1: All right, well, you heard it right there.
00:39:20
Hopefully, this allows you to fine tune your game and take
00:39:24
advantage of behavioral science in your marketing.
00:39:26
Nancy, thank you so much, and everybody, we will see you again
00:39:29
on our next edition of the live stream of the your Digital
00:39:32
Marketing Coach podcast.
00:39:33
I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did.
00:39:40
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00:39:41
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00:39:48
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00:40:18
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00:40:32
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00:40:34
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00:40:38
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00:40:38
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