The Three Things Your Website Needs to Actually Work

[00:00:00] Your website is way more than just a place to list your products or services. It is the absolute heart of your digital marketing. In this episode, my guest shares why your site should be the hub of everything you do online, how to stop wasting time on things that don't work, and how to start building better trust with the people who matter most to your business. So make sure you stay tuned to the very end of this next episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast.

[00:00:28] Digital, social media, content influencer, marketing, blogging, podcasting, vlogging, TikToking, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketing. There's a lot to cover. Whether you're a marketing professional, entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert advice. Good thing you've got Neal on your side.

[00:00:56] Because Neal Schaffer is your digital marketing coach. Helping you grow your business with digital first marketing, one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neal Schaffer. Hey everybody, this is your digital marketing coach, Neal Schaffer, and welcome to episode number 400. That's right, 417 of this podcast.

[00:01:25] If you are a new listener here, well, there's a lot more episodes to go over, so make sure you find the topics, do searches either on your podcast player, or you can go to my podcast website, podcast.nealschaffer.com, to find only the episodes that you might be looking for. Alrighty, in this episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach Podcast, I talk with James Hipkin, a long-time marketer and the author of Journey to Success, Digital Marketing for Small Business Owners.

[00:01:53] James brings a really fresh take on something many businesses overlook, and something also we don't really talk a lot about on this podcast, which is your website. We talk about how your website should be the center of all of your digital marketing, why flashy tools and trends don't matter if there's no strategy behind them, and how to think a little bit differently about the way you guide people through your site. Now, this topic is important because your website is the only part of your digital marketing, I suppose outside of your email marketing, that you truly own.

[00:02:22] Everything else from social media to search ads is rented land. Now, if your website isn't built to build trust and show that you understand your customers, then all the traffic in the world won't help you grow. So without further ado, here's my interview with James Hipkin. You're listening to Your Digital Marketing Coach. This is Neil Schaefer. Hey everybody, this is Neil Schaefer.

[00:02:50] Welcome to another special live stream edition of the Your Digital Marketing Coach Podcast. If you are a regular listener or viewer, you will notice that my voice is not what it usually is. So I am in the tail end of a cold. Don't worry, I'm okay. But if my voice sounds really crackly, it's not because I'm not interested in what our guest is saying. I'm extremely interested, but just trying to get over this cold with energy and passion in helping you better leverage digital marketing for your business.

[00:03:17] And that's why I'm really excited today to introduce to you my guest, James Hipkin. Among other things, James is the author, and my apologies for not being able to pick the book out of my bookshelf, of The Journey to Success, Digital Marketing for Small Business Owners. James helps six-figure businesses who are or who want to be using digital marketing get the websites they need to maximize the impact of their efforts. And just a little bit more about James. Got a few introductory paragraphs here.

[00:03:45] Since 2010, James Hipkin has built his clients' businesses with digital marketing. Today, James is passionate about websites and helping the rest of us understand online marketing. His customers value his jargon-free, common-sense approach. And quoting one of his customers, James explains the ins and outs of digital marketing in ways that just make sense. So if you've listened to me, you might say, hey, that sounds like you, Neil. Well, I think James and I are very much kindred spirits. As you'll find out, James really focuses on that website.

[00:04:14] And for those of you that have read digital threads and I go through those six containers of digital marketing, it all begins with a website. And often we spend a lot of time talking about, you know, content marketing and blogs and social media influencers. And we forget about our digital storefront on Digital Main Street, which is that website. So I'm really excited to have James on today to be able to bring us back into focus and learn a thing or two that can help our businesses with our website. So without further ado, James, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Neil.

[00:04:42] I am so happy to be here. I am so looking forward to this conversation. So am I, my friend. So as we were prepping for this interview, I'd say, you know, James, we weren't born saying that we want to own digital marketing agencies when we're babies. Or, I mean, when we were born, digital marketing obviously wasn't even a thing. So I was still reading the World Book Encyclopedia and we still use telephone books to find businesses. Obviously, the world has changed since then. So James, let's start with what brought you into digital marketing.

[00:05:09] Because I think that music also played a role here. But I'm fascinated to hear your story. Well, it's, I've had a checkered past, Neil. It's been a lot of fun, but it has not been the traditional path. I graduated from college with a music degree. And I know this will shock you. I have no idea. But corporate America does not knock your door down if you have a music degree. You know? So what did I do?

[00:05:37] I spent the first six years after college working in the rock and roll industry. Working on, as a road manager and stage manager and producer for rock and roll bands. People that you'd recognize. And that was absolutely fascinating. And it was a pretty amazing training ground for a lot of the skills that have held me in good stead throughout my career.

[00:06:02] But at the age of 30, I'm like, I just don't want to keep doing this. And the marketing and advertising side of what we were doing with bands and concerts and that sort of thing, that really fascinated me. And it seemed that I had a real opportunity to go in that direction.

[00:06:24] And also, I remembered a conversation that I'd had with the lead singer and bass player with one of the bands that I supported. It's a heavy metal rock band out of Canada called Rush. And Geddy Lee is this lead singer and bass player and an extremely nice guy and a really smart guy. And he was talking to me about how they were vertically integrated. This is back in the 1980s, right?

[00:06:54] This is way before this was common knowledge and etc. But they were doing it back then. They owned their own sound and lights. They owned their own trucks. They owned their own record company. They owned their own publishing. They were completely vertically integrated. And when they weren't using their sound and lights and trucks, they would rent them to other rock bands. And their record company would sign other artists. I mean, he talked, he had a business conversation about all this.

[00:07:23] And I'm like, if he can do that as the bass player in a heavy metal band, I can probably do it too. And that gave me the sort of permission, if you will, to go, I can do this. And I went about getting a job at the Toronto office of a New York ad agency. It was called Ted Bates. It no longer exists now.

[00:07:47] And that started my career, which has taken me to four different countries on three different continents. And I've worked with some of the biggest brands in the world, you know, multi-figure budgets, big programs, you know, stuff. And 12 years ago, I had an opportunity to buy a vendor. I was managing the digital budget for a car brand, Toyota.

[00:08:14] And I wanted to get out of the agency rat race and all that good stuff. I was also kind of aging out of it. And I thought about, what do I want to do? This is a digital production studio. And it does some websites, did lots of other things too. But I focused it in on the website because when it gets right down to it, a business only owns two things, the website and their list. Everything else is rented land.

[00:08:42] And, you know, when you think about it, the analogy I use, you talked about different buckets, right? And that you talk about in your book. The analogy I use is the wheel. If you think about marketing in general and digital marketing in particular, where you've got a hub, you've got spokes, and you've got a rim that holds it all together. Well, the website is the hub.

[00:09:11] Your value emanates out from the website and consumers and your customers find you through the website. The spokes are the digital marketing channels that you're using to facilitate this communication. And the content and messaging strategy is the rim that holds it all together. The power doesn't come from the individual parts. The power comes from how they're connected together.

[00:09:41] And that's an insight that I think business owners really need to focus in on is it's not about the shiny thing. It's not about my nephew told me I should be on TikTok, right? It's not about hiring a digital marketing agency and making my stuff pretty. If there isn't a strategy as your foundation piece, all you've done is taken digital noise and made it pretty digital noise.

[00:10:10] And that's not helping your customers and it's not helping your business. Yeah, I love the analogy. So the hub and spoke is an analogy that I think if we've been in digital marketing with HubSpot and inbound marketing, we've heard before. But I've never heard the rim attached to it, which also the messaging holds everything together. So that makes a heck of a lot of sense. And I think I know a lot of small businesses I work with, they want to move on to the next thing. And they literally don't have their house in order, which is their website.

[00:10:40] So I want to move on. And I love the – I'm sure you could drop names of bands that are pretty famous that you work with. We're all big music fans here. I played in a very small band when I lived in Japan, played drums. But big rock fans, respect for – man, what amazing times to be able to work with musicians of that stature when it was such a huge industry back then. I don't think people growing up today – I mean, maybe Taylor Swift is the closest thing.

[00:11:06] But just the mindshare that artists like Rush had in the day of always being on the radio, of being one of the few bands that could sell out these huge concert halls. Yeah, it's something really special. Well, quick side story on that if you're a fan. Do you remember there was a situation where a bunch of kids got killed in the rush to get into a stadium to see The Who? I think this was in Cleveland or – It was in Ohio, yeah. I remember that. Yeah.

[00:11:34] I worked the show in Buffalo two nights later. Wow. They dedicated – it wasn't their fault. Yeah, yeah. They dedicated the show to the kids that were killed and injured in their event. They played for four straight hours. Wow. It was the most amazing concert I've ever seen. Wow. It was phenomenal. Amazing.

[00:12:03] Man, I feel like – I know this isn't a music podcast, but we could probably talk. I grew up listening to that music. I got more into like indie and new wave and punk rock growing up. But in the 70s, that's the music in our household. That's all that it was. So very cool. So moving back to digital marketing. Oh, you're so boring, Neil. Come on. I want to make sure my voice holds up to get through the questions I have for you.

[00:12:29] So as we were prepping for this interview and getting back to the importance of that website, one of the things that you preach is to make every click count. And I think in difficult words, we would call this conversion rate optimization, right? But for the small business owners, those that aren't as savvy at digital, this notion of making every click count. How can we – you know, we go out of our way. Sometimes we even buy advertising to get people to our website.

[00:12:54] How do we make sure that every visitor that comes, we reap the most value of their visit? What advice do you have for us? A couple things. People often ask me, how does your, you know, long and deep experience with big brands and big budgets, how does that translate to the smaller business owner who doesn't have a multi-eight-figure budget to spend on marketing? And the way it translates is you've got to think about things in terms of principles.

[00:13:24] What is the underlying principle that is making this work? And one of those principles, my way to express it, is the difference most businesses practice what I call inside-out marketing. And that's analogous to they're standing on their rooftop shouting at the world at large about how awesome they are. Look at me, look at me. Yeah, look at me, look at me. I don't know how to break this to you, man, but nobody cares.

[00:13:55] And the opportunity is to practice outside-in marketing. And I'll give you an example of this. I'll ask a business owner what they think the primary objective of their website is. And they'll get a list of things that they want the website to do, and we'll have a quick chat about the definition of the word primary. There can only be one. And usually they'll end up landing on conversion.

[00:14:23] It's almost always wrong. And let me explain why. Conversion's part of it. But from the customer's point of view, when they get to the website or they get to your marketing landing page, their first priority is not conversion. Their first priority is confirmation.

[00:14:43] They're there to confirm that you understand their problem, that you have viable solution for their problem, and that solution is credible. All of that needs to happen before you get to conversion. And what often happens is the business owner, immediately, they've been told their entire life that conversion, conversion, conversion, call to action, call to action, call to action.

[00:15:13] It's another thing we can talk about. But from a consumer's point of view, I mean, that's the marketer is shouting at customers and telling them what to do. And people don't want to be shouted at, and they don't want to be told what to do. If you can embrace them and show them that you understand what they're struggling with, the challenge that they're facing, and that you can relate to that. And this brings me back to my music background. Musicians are empathetic.

[00:15:42] Musicians rarely play by themselves. They're always part of a group of some sort, and you have to listen to what the other folks are doing. You have to fit in with the overall message. You have to support when other people are performing. These are all characteristics of music. They're also characteristics of really effective marketing.

[00:16:10] So taking your advice, instead of focusing on a conversion, focusing on the confirmation, building trust, gaining credibility. What are some specific recommendations you might have for those listening of something they can do right now to try to improve that? Would it be turning off those annoying pop-ups or adding customer testimonials? And I know that every website, every business obviously is very, very different, requires a customized strategy. But any general advice that you often find yourself giving?

[00:17:06] Absolutely. In their journey, outside in marketing. Another one of my more controversial things, which I think is a good example of what we're talking about, I want people to stop saying call to action. Right? And people go, wait, what? What is this crazy person saying? And what I want you to start saying is, I'm not creating a call to action. I'm creating a pathway.

[00:17:35] Because when you're creating a pathway, a people like you pathway, you're calling out to subsegments in your audience and you're saying, I get you. I've got information for you. Click this button and we can have a conversation. Functionally, a pathway and a call to action are exactly the same thing. But the mindset shift is significant. A call to action is a marketer shouting at a customer and telling them what to do.

[00:18:03] A pathway is a marketer inviting a potential customer to join them and I'll give you information that you're looking for. I mean, how awesome is that? Indeed. Right? And what you want is, you want the purchase to stop being a sale and start becoming the next logical step in their journey. Because when that happens, you've built a relationship, you've got some trust.

[00:18:31] The chances that that customer will buy from you a second time and a third time and a fourth time are exponentially improved. Simple changes that have a very significant impact on how your business can develop and the quality of the customers you're going to attract and convert into becoming part of your ecosystem. That's very, very powerful advice.

[00:18:57] And I know that a lot of you listening may be looking for that quick fix. And I'm sure, James, when you've talked with potential clients, some of them very impatient, like how is that going to lead to business tomorrow? And obviously, that's not, you know, to paraphrase the commercial, that's not how it works. Right. So I'm very big into mindset shifts as well. When you change your mindset and you use that as a barometer to look at everything on your website, you're going to look at it very differently. And hopefully, all of you listening will do that right after we finish the interview. But wait, there's more. Yeah.

[00:19:27] I want to ask you, you know, when we were prepping, you said that there was a lot that you learned from musicians that you can apply to marketing. So I love that, you know, that musicians being empathetic as a drummer. When you're a casual fan of music, you don't understand. But when you're a drummer, that relationship with the bass player is so critical, right? That you don't even realize. But it's also the guitarist, the solo, the intro and really fitting in. So I really dug that analogy. Are there any other analogies from your career in music that you think apply to marketing?

[00:19:57] Well, absolutely. When you think about it, music, when it's put on a piece of paper, right? You've got bars and notes and all that's laid out in a piece of paper. And every note has a particular value in terms of time. It's all very logical. If you perform the music exactly as it's written on the piece of paper, it will be boring. Marketing is very similar.

[00:20:24] Marketing has a whole bunch of steps that are very well documented. People understand what they are. You do ads. You blah, blah, blah. Landing page. You know, call to action. All that stuff that we've been talking about. But great marketing, you have to interpret what you're doing laterally. You have to see the linear. You have to interpret it laterally. Music is exactly the same thing.

[00:20:50] It's all written out on a piece of paper, but you have to interpret what's on the piece of paper and bring your own perspective to it. And marketing and music have a lot in common when you think about it that way. I mean, 12-bar blues. It's 12 bars. It's the same chord structure. It's been around forever. On its face. What can you do with that?

[00:21:16] And yet, thousands and thousands of amazing songs have been written using the same 12 bars and the same chord structure. Right? Right? Because that logical progression has been interpreted laterally. And that balance between the linear and the lateral, that is what separates great marketing from, you know, I got the job done. Yeah, that's great advice.

[00:21:40] And I think that if you think back of the different ways you can interpret the same thing, and as I was saying before, there's always this custom application for your particular business, your industry, your target customer that requires something different. So it kills me. And I'm sure you as well, James, when you hear, you know, someone say, oh, well, we just followed this advice on this blog post, right?

[00:22:00] That's, you know, you have to apply it, that there are fundamentals, like you mentioned the hub, the spoke, the rim, but how you apply it to your business is going to be inherently different than how I apply it to my business. So. And who determines that? You know, is that determined by what you think? Or is it determined by what your customer thinks? You know, I remember a conversation I had with a, we got hired as an executive vice president at an agency in Chicago.

[00:22:29] And we won a piece of business with a major telecom. And they hired us to help them with loyalty. They were literally losing customers faster than they were gaining customers. And I remember where I'm still friends with this guy sitting down in the director of marketing's office and for our initial meeting. And he says, well, what do you think? And I looked at him and I said, I think you need to spend less money.

[00:22:57] I'm telling you, Neil, he damn near fell off his chair. He's like, no agency person has ever walked into this office ever and told me that I need to spend less money. You need to explain that. So what I talked to him about was, if he looks at his customers, 80% of his revenue is coming from 20% of his customers. That means that 20% are really, really, really important to him.

[00:23:28] And 80%, not so much. And one of the fundamental principles of marketing is the best marketing in the world is not going to change a customer's needs date. If they don't need what you're selling, they're not going to see the marketing. Sorry. Right? Indeed. So I said, we need to find out who that 20% is. We need to find out what matters to them.

[00:23:55] You need to stop sending all this loyalty marketing out to the world at large in your customer base and start focusing in on the 20% that actually matter. You matter to them and they matter to you. Find out what motivates them, what their issues are, et cetera. And he's like, okay. I mean, obviously it was more complicated than that, but conceptually that's what happened. And so we took about a year to put the whole program together.

[00:24:25] And at the end of the second year, I sat down with him and I said, so how are we doing? And he said, you know, I'm managing a $2 billion base of business with a B. And I've generated 20% revenue growth on a $2 billion base of business. And we haven't changed market share one point. And he said, it's from your program.

[00:24:49] So recognizing who your real customers are, recognizing what they're looking for, understanding the journey that they are on, supporting that journey, giving them the information that they're looking for, building those relationships, building trust. That's how you turn your marketing into a powerful, powerful engine. Don't waste your time talking to people who don't care.

[00:25:15] Yeah, it's such great advice and a great story that drives a lot of points. Because I do think a lot of, probably a lot of small business owners that you meet with and me as well, there's a Japanese term called happo biji. Which basically is you're trying to look beautiful in all eight directions. When really you want to only look beautiful in the direction where your strategic customers are going to come from, the 80-20 rule, right? So I think that's a great reminder.

[00:25:39] And I want to lead on with a question here because I think this is another use case scenario of a technology we're going to talk about. But this is like a never-ending theme, I think, for all of my clients. I think for any small business out there is really honing in on who that 20% customer that's going to drive 80% of the revenue is. I want to shift gears a little bit. Every guest I've had on here, we've talked about AI. You cannot talk about marketing these days without talking about AI. And there's a lot of different perspectives on it.

[00:26:07] But James, I definitely wanted to get your perspective of demystifying digital marketing, the importance of the website. Where does AI fit into everything we've been talking about today? Or does it fit in? Oh, I believe it does. And particularly on this thing I just riffed on a little bit about who are your best customers, what do they look like, and what's their journey?

[00:26:28] When I was managing bigger budgets, spending $50,000 for a research study to build a customer avatar and a buyer's journey map was barely even rounding error. But most smaller businesses, that's a significant amount of money. They don't want to be paying for focus groups and quantitative confirmation research and smart, smart analysts to look at all of this stuff and come back and say,

[00:26:52] this is what your avatar, this is who your avatar is, and this is what causes them to start thinking about a solution at the top of the funnel. These are the questions and obstacles they're trying to deal with in the middle of the funnel. These are the key criteria for the purchase decision. All this buyer's journey map things. What we've done is partnering with one of those researchers that I used to work with, who, much to my wife's amazement, is my friend, always amazes her.

[00:27:21] We built an interview guide that a customer can use, that a client can use to interview their current customers. And then we take the recordings of those interviews and we have built an AI engine. A lot of input from me and from Susan and from third-party research to really make this thing smart.

[00:27:43] And this AI engine analyzes all of the six to ten transcripts from these interviews. And because there's an interview guide, because the interviews are structured, they know what they're looking for. And that tool generates the avatar and the buyer's journey map. And those two pieces are the foundation pieces for a smart marketing strategy.

[00:28:11] And the absence of strategy is one of the most common problems I see when I audit websites, when I audit digital marketing campaigns. You know, it might look nice. You know, it might be very clever. But if it's not talking to the real customers in language that the real customer is looking for, it's just pretty noise.

[00:28:35] And so that we've used AI to make this $50,000 study accessible to a small business owner at a much more reasonable cost. And with that, those two powerful things, you know, their digital marketing agency is going to perform better. Their marketing is going to perform better. They'll know who that they're talking to and they'll know who they're not talking to.

[00:28:58] Because, you know, as you understand, you know, it's as important to repel the wrong customers as it is to attract the right customers. And the avatar and the journey map help you do that. Yeah. And this conversation echoes that my previous guest, a gentleman named Stephen Lewis, talked about the power and the science behind synthetic personas, which is exactly what you're talking about here. And I think a lot of us in marketing at the beginning with ChatGPT was all about generative AI and content creation.

[00:29:27] And a lot of conversations I've had, like this one with you, James, is really, no, let's use AI to better understand who our target customer is and then use that as a guiding light for all the content web copy. Does it satisfy their need? You know, use that as a focus group. So that's really great advice and a great product or service that you offer your customers. So I think we're nearing the end of the conversation. And I just want to give you the chance before you introduce your company. I know you work for innately.com and you want to introduce what you do there.

[00:29:57] Is there any other, you know, parting advice? We've talked about, you know, the whole spectrum of digital marketing, focusing on the website, got the AI. Anything we're missing from the conversation, James, that you want to make sure our listeners and our viewers get out of this interview? Well, I think a key piece of that is also the, it's a three-legged stool, right? There's who's your customer and then what's your business. The third leg that oftentimes gets overlooked is measurement.

[00:30:26] You need to measure everything. It's not hard. There's a concept called a UTM code, been around forever. If you've seen a URL and there's a question mark and a bunch of stuff afterwards, the question mark bunch of stuff afterwards is the tracking tag. And you can, you can put those on your links, wherever you're doing your marketing. And then you can use Google analytics to actually track what's working and what's not.

[00:30:56] I get, I'm a number of times clients have come to us and they've got all these things they're doing and we'll ask them, so which piece of this is working best? They have no idea. So first thing we always do is put tracking into everything they're doing. And very, very quickly, we can determine these things are working and these things aren't. Stop spending money on the things that aren't working and start spending more money on the things that are.

[00:31:26] That third leg is really, really important because otherwise it's just, you're trying to balance on two, two legs and that's, that works fine if you're a human or even a robot these days, but it doesn't work well in marketing. You need that third leg, that measurement piece to really, truly understand. Are you, you need to water the flowers and prune the weeds. And you can't do that if you don't know which is which.

[00:31:52] The unsung hero of digital marketing, the UTM parameter, a great reminder that, you know, it's always been there and it's something we don't take advantage of. Yes, it is a hassle, but once you have a system in place, it is beautifully eloquent and will lead you in the direction you need to go. So James, this has been great. I want to give you a chance at the end to introduce a little bit about your company Innately and how you help small business owners. Well, Innately is a product that we developed seven years ago. So most of our work historically has been with large corporations.

[00:32:21] We build and maintain and host and, you know, manage large corporate websites, which is kind of a roundabout way of saying we actually know what we're doing. Smaller business owners couldn't afford to work with us, but when I saw the god-awful websites they had, they really should be working with us. So we created Innately as a semi-custom solution that takes advantage of our vertical infrastructure. And, you know, we have content specialists, we have developers, we have all these teams,

[00:32:49] this team that is in place to support the corporate clients. We're using the same team to support small business owners and making it available through a subscription process. And the concepts behind this is, our little line is, if it's not strategic, it's not marketing. And so that's my background. That's why I picked websites 12 years ago.

[00:33:15] That's why we've developed products like the Marketing Sage Advantage, which is the avatar journey map tool. Because if it's not strategic, it's not marketing. It's just noise. And so that's what Innately is, is it's a small business website subscription service for folks who are ready to stop DIYing it and, you know, step up to a resource that has the capacity,

[00:33:41] has the smarts, and has the knowledge to take them to the next level when it comes to their website present. But also now, as of we started last year, we've expanded into other digital marketing services as well. But again, the underlying principles are still the same. It's not strategic. It's not marketing. Excellent introduction. Thank you so much, James. For those that are listening, Innately is the letters I-N-N, the number 8, and then L-Y.com.

[00:34:09] So, you know, business is all about, you know, my fractional CMO clients are the same. It's all like, know, and trust. You're not going to work with me unless you like, know, and trust me. And if from listening to this interview with James, you got a little bit of like, know, and trust with him, definitely check out innately.com. I think there's definitely a market for what you do, James. I know you found it. But there's a lot of businesses that do try to DIY it. And when you're ready to go from the minor leagues to the big leagues or to the big stage from being the opening act, you'll want to reach out to James. So thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom with my audience, James.

[00:34:38] I hope people reach out to you, connect with you on LinkedIn. And I wish you the best of luck. Thank you so much, Neil. It's been a pleasure. All right. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. A refreshing topic, which a lot of us take for granted, and it might be time if we haven't over the last few years to take another look at our website design and how we are building trust and leading customers on their journey through our content. And on that note, hey, have you heard of my book, Digital Threads?

[00:35:08] This came out in October of last year, but it is the definitive digital marketing playbook for entrepreneurs and small business owners. If you are not familiar with it, you can get a free preview PDF of it. Go over to neilshafer.com slash books. And actually, you'll find free PDFs, free e-books, as well as special free preview editions of most of my books that I have published. And I have six published marketing books, if you didn't know. So check it out. neilshafer.com slash books.

[00:35:35] And that is it for another exciting episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. This is your digital marketing coach, Neil Schaefer, signing off. You've been listening to Your Digital Marketing Coach. Questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast.neilshafer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes at neilshafer.com to tap into the 400

[00:36:02] plus blog post that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's digital first group coaching membership community. If you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on Your Digital Marketing Coach.