Marketing with Meaning: How to Build a Purpose-Driven Brand

[00:00:00] Marketing isn't just about selling. It's about purpose, meaning, and engagement. In this episode, I sit down with my friend, Minter Dial, to explore how brands can align internal culture with external messaging, create meaningful customer relationships, and even incorporate play into your work. We'll also dive into the power of self-awareness and how knowing thyself can transform both business and life.

[00:00:26] This is an episode filled with inspiration and actionable insights. So stay tuned to this next episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach Podcast.

[00:00:58] If you need someone you can rely on for expert advice, good thing you've got Neal on your side. Because Neal Schaffer is your Digital Marketing Coach. Helping you grow your business with digital-first marketing, one episode at a time. This is your Digital Marketing Coach, and this is Neal Schaffer.

[00:01:25] Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach Podcast. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming back my good friend, Minter Dial, a marketing expert, author, and speaker with a wealth of experience in both corporate and independent spaces. Our conversation goes beyond traditional marketing. We dive into the power of purpose, the importance of aligning internal culture with external branding, and why play should be an integral part of business.

[00:01:52] You know, with the world changing rapidly in AI, remote work, shifting consumer expectations, companies need to rethink how they engage both employees and customers alike. So Minter shared some fantastic insights on how brands and businesses of all sizes can move beyond just talking about purpose and actually making it a tool for engagement. Plus, we explore the growing popularity of paddle.

[00:02:21] In the United States, we have pickleball. In Europe, it seems like paddle is the rage. And it's a sport that Minter is deeply involved in and how it connects back to business in life. You know, once in a while, I like to have mindset episodes which go above and beyond just marketing and business and translate into life. So this is the episode that's going to be packed with some thought-provoking ideas on a broad scale that you will not want to miss. So without further ado, here is my interview with Minter Dial.

[00:02:50] You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neil Schafer. Hey, everybody. This is Neil Schafer. Welcome to another live stream edition of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. You know, I don't go to London several times a year, but when I do get to London, there is one person that I go out of my way to look up. And if our schedules align, have a very, very nice cup of coffee or tea together with. That gentleman's name is Minter Dial.

[00:03:20] Minter has an amazing work experience both in corporate as a CMO as well as independent as an author and a speaker. You might have remembered Minter. For those of you that have been listening long enough, he was actually featured on episode number 301 back in January 13, 2023. How to foster meaningful conversations that engage and move people. Today we're going to be switching gears. Minter is always switching gears, always doing something interesting. Hopefully we'll get to that today.

[00:03:50] But today we're going to be talking more about purposeful marketing, about play in business, about having meaning in everything that we do as companies, as people. So whenever I have conversations with Minter, these are the conversations we have. It goes beyond just this narrow scope of marketing or even business to cover life in general. So today we take a step back and hopefully you'll agree with me that speaking with Minter is really refreshing and inspirational. So Minter, welcome to the podcast.

[00:04:20] Meal, always great. And looking forward to sharing my next beer, if not a coffee or green tea. Yeah, yeah. We always seem to meet in mornings in coffee shops. We're definitely next time in a pub over an ale. But Minter, for those that don't know you, you are so multifaceted doing many different things. When you meet someone for the first time in a pub, how do you introduce yourself? Oh boy.

[00:04:43] Well, I kind of, I usually pick up on the accent of the person speaking and try to adapt accordingly because it can take forever as you get older, you have to say any more things. But basically I'm a 60 year old living in London and I spend my time trying to think about how to make the world a little bit of a better place, elevate the debate and connect people dots and ideas. Fantastic. I didn't even have time to transition back.

[00:05:08] Obviously you have a storied history as a CMO in marketing and you're doing a lot of different things now. You're writing, proficient writer. You're the one who gave me the advice, Neil, you know, just every day sit down, write 2000 words, which I've tried to do. I don't think I'm as consistent as you are, but I want to shift gears a little bit as we get in. And I'm sure in the conversation you'll be introducing some of your professional past and your books and what you do now.

[00:05:31] Let's begin with, you speak with a lot of businesses and what are the big challenges that you see being faced today? I think we're in this weird time where we've had the emergence of AI. There's a lot of change in the world, you know, natural disasters here in Los Angeles, wars. What are the challenges that you see today when working with businesses? And we'll start there. Well, beautiful. Yeah, there are a ton of challenges.

[00:05:58] Some of them have been around for a little while, but the type of challenges that I see a lot of actually concern mental health. And on the one hand, there's a lot more mental health. But on the other hand, I also see a lot less resilience creating the mental health issues.

[00:06:15] There's a survey by Business Solver, HR tech company based in the US, that found that in 2024, 55% of CEOs in the survey said or declared that they had had a bout of anxiety, depression in the last 12 months. Wow. So even at the highest levels, we have issues of mental health.

[00:06:39] And of course, underneath that, we've got all the employees who most of whom, two thirds of whom do not feel engaged in the work that they're doing. So when you put those two together and you add in things like the challenge of psychological safety or lack thereof in a fast moving environment where no one's certain about anything, it makes for a pretty nasty cocktail.

[00:07:05] I'm wondering, and this is something I still reflect on, just this long going influence of what we went through during the coronavirus pandemic. Do you think this stems from that or is this just something very different with the ubiquitous nature of social media or always on connected? You're working at home even if you're not, you know, you're working even if you're at home and not at the office. Is it just a culmination of all these things you think? Well, it's certainly, I don't think it began it. It accentuated an existing challenge.

[00:07:35] We've come to be so privileged to exist in this era in terms of progress, the amount of benefits and facilities and healthcare. I mean, there's so many things to be thankful for, yet people are not feeling particularly fulfilled. And you have, while it's good to know that we can declare mental health issues, there's sort of a floodgates opening situation.

[00:08:03] And when it came time to COVID, what I believe happened was that it accentuated the need to feel, to have more meaningfulness in our lives. John Verveke, the professor at Toronto, talks about the meaningful crisis. And for marketers, this is extremely important to get a grip on.

[00:08:22] Because if people feel there's a lack of meaning, it's an opportunity for marketers to create more meaning and meaningfulness in the brand and the products or services that they're providing. So that's the good news within all of that. But COVID certainly accentuated the need. It was obviously a revolutionary moment for everybody. Businesses all of a sudden discovered things that they thought they could never do.

[00:08:49] And when the topic of death was so prevalent, or at least the risk of catching a flu and COVID and all this, it sort of brought a little bit more precision to the vision of what's actually important in life. And why do I want to bust my butt to go into work, commute? What a waste of time that is. And what's it all for? What are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting.

[00:09:17] You touch upon that topic of people looking for meaning and brands that bring, you know, we'll talk about meaning and purpose in a bit as well. But, you know, these are, as marketers, as we talk about these things, we tend to associate these things more with the generation. This is what Gen Z is looking for. What you're saying is this is universal. This is the human element. Is that correct? Yeah. Well, I mean, we've always sought to have purpose. I mean, there's the notion of purpose.

[00:09:42] Your company's purpose is to make money, which was the long time held purpose. But now we've gotten into another zone where, as we no longer have to worry so much about the basic principles of Maslow's pyramid, we're moving up the pyramid to find other things that need fulfillment. Our needs are around self-fulfillment, self-knowledge.

[00:10:04] And everybody is living this glorious life, no world wars, glorious, I mean, in quotation marks. And they're like, but they're not feeling particularly fulfilled. So what is it's missing in people's lives? It's not buying one more, you know, car or one more lawnmower. You know, the consumer component to life isn't really enriching.

[00:10:33] So with that in mind, when we were getting ready for this episode, you were saying that people talk a lot about purpose. But that alone doesn't seem to work much. And you believe you can make purpose a real tool of engagement. And I'm assuming this engagement is both for employees as well as for the public to rally them around your, you know, your product or service, your brand. Let's talk a little bit about that. What is the solution here? All right.

[00:11:00] So the definition that I like to use around purpose is doing something bigger than for yourself. So trying to contribute to some bigger scope than just your shareholders or even your employees. The point you raised, Neil, about the purpose. Well, the number one audience for that purpose must be the employees. They are the ones that need to believe it and live it the most.

[00:11:27] Because in the end of the day, they're the ones who are busting about going into work, coming in, doing, delivering everything and delivering the excellent service or product to the customers. As far as making the purpose count, I think it's worth telling you the story of how when I was running the brand, the hairdresser brand Redken, how we went about making purpose.

[00:11:52] And obviously we were owned by L'Oreal, but it was this gorgeous brand that had a purpose that was bigger than just doing the business, making great shampoos. Our purpose was to earn a better living and live a better life. And while we were selling shampoos to hairdressers, and you might think it's a stretch to live a better life because of a good old shampoo.

[00:12:18] The way we organized that thought was the big deal was that we were helping every hairdresser who was part of our gang to be more confident, more fulfilled individuals. And if they were, because on average, they have 1,600 customers, mostly women who come into their salon, these more fulfilled, more confident hairdressers would provide a better experience.

[00:12:45] My great, my lovely late mother-in-law, her visit to the salon once a week was one of the major highlights of her week. And if so, if you can imagine the 85,000 or so hairdressers salons that we had around the world were providing daily services to these individuals. They are the glue of society, especially in smaller towns. And they provide an extraordinarily uplifting experience for so many of their customers.

[00:13:15] So what we were trying to do was to allow our hairdressers to earn a better living because so many of them don't earn a lot of money. And live a better life in order to provide a more excellent service. But here's the point, is that that's where we wanted to go to, was to the customer being the hairdressing salon. They then had other customers who were buying our products, which we could have considered as customers. But our focus was first on the employees.

[00:13:41] We needed to make sure that from the executive suite out until the salesperson on the street, on the road, whatever, that they too felt that they were able to earn a better living and live a better life by working with Redken. And that was the strength of the purpose.

[00:13:59] It was a purpose that had ambition beyond the scope of the company, yet felt real and lived from the kernel, the inside kernel of the Redken team. And today, I mean, 2025, I am still in touch with so many members of the Redken teams around the world that have long lost, left Redken.

[00:14:22] But what we shared was something that was enduring, not just because we were running the business, because we felt it personally. And literally, if I were to talk about tattoos, it was the kind of thing, even if you don't like tattoos, you would feel confident in tattooing on your body and thinking, well, I've got to have that until my death. Because even though I left Redken, I no longer sell the shampoos.

[00:14:48] That feeling of doing something strong was so powerful. And by the way, it also made us particularly successful. That's an amazing story that's powerful, yet actually very, very easy to understand. Hard to replicate, obviously, because the purpose has to be unique to that brand and that company's DNA. I'm curious, though, so the story of purpose for the end customer, for the salon, the hairdresser that's purchasing Redken makes a lot of sense.

[00:15:14] For the employee, then, is it the fact that they are taking part in fulfilling the dreams and supporting? What is the story for the employees? And I guess this gets down to the core of employee engagement. But what was the angle there internally? Right. So what we did, I mean, this took a whole lot of work and it wasn't done overnight.

[00:15:35] But we wanted to consider along the entire value chain up until the hairdresser stylist is working in the salon, how each group along the way of the chain would be able to feel like they are earning a better living and living a better life. And it had to be done differently according to the context. Because, for example, we had distributors.

[00:15:58] And some of the distributor principles were running companies that were, one of them in particular, was six, seven times bigger than us. So who are we to say, we're going to help you earn a better living? Right. What did that mean? It's not like they already own Lamborghinis and sailing yachts. So we needed to create ways for it to be meaningful without being bullshitty about it to every person along the way.

[00:16:27] So the distributor principle owning a large organization with many warehouses and maybe a thousand distributors, thousands, the DSC, the distributors, thousands, became the focus of how do we make them feel that they can earn a better living and live a better life? Not just the commercial make more money thing, but live a better life. Because that is the uplifting piece. And so with the DSC, they were selling multiple products, not just ours.

[00:16:55] So how do we organize that feeling so that they too would feel like they could, at the end of the year, say, well, thanks to Redken, I feel like I'm a better person. I'm also selling other companies and other brands. And we had no problem with that.

[00:17:12] Then when it came to the employees where we were part of the L'Oreal group, here are the challenges is that you have a whole ton of bureaucracies and protocols and policies that meant that if you were working for Redken in marketing, you still needed to have the same pay bracket as someone who's working in marketing in another brand. Let's say Maybelline or whatever.

[00:17:37] So we couldn't exactly just say, oh, well, don't worry, you're going to work for Redken and we're going to pay you more. No. What we did is we converted, well, in a co-constructed manner. We found a way for the employees of Redken, who are, comma, employees of L'Oreal, comma, to find a way to feel that they too were earning more money.

[00:18:02] So the way we are earning a better living, because earning a better living also includes the time that you spend. So if you made your budget, what we said, well, we're going to give you more time off. You're going to get to live more. Like you say, it's not easy to replicate.

[00:18:24] But once you have the mindset of doing something bigger, but not too big, that's just ridiculously, you know, save the world. Right. You need to do it in a way that makes sense, that has ambition, but is realistic. And then what you need to do is bear down on the parts of your value chain, how you want to make them live and experience the purpose as well.

[00:18:49] Because if your whole thing, and this is why I always said for Amazon, not a great idea, their purpose is to make the most customer-centric organization or company on this earth. So that's great. Except what about the employee's life? How do you make their lives better through the fact that you're making everyone else's lives better? Well, it feels like at the end of the day, I'm not actually experiencing the benefit of that.

[00:19:16] If only because we have more profits and I get perhaps more stocks at the end of the year. But that's just money. Doing something that is elevating and elevates me. So, for example, I was running the company. So let's call me the CEO of Redken. I was able to feel that I was, Minter, was learning to be a better person. For example, I learned how to speak on stage better at Redken.

[00:19:45] This is partly professional. But we weren't at all shy about saying, well, this is going to help you make speeches at weddings when your daughter gets married. You're going to be a better speaker at your daughter's wedding. So very personal and very realistic for Minter to feel, oh, that's cool. I really dig the fact that I am learning at a professional space, entirely work and professional, things that are going to make me live a better life. That's really powerful.

[00:20:13] You know, this conversation leads me into, you know, I teach this class on personal branding, how to become an influencer. And when we talk about branding, a lot of people associate it with, you know, logos and colors and designs and vibe. But really the core branding, and I go back to Simon Sinek, what is your why? It's that purpose, right? And there's a slide I used from HubSpot that says we have two brands. We have an external brand and internal brand. The internal brands for us, it's our culture, right?

[00:20:41] But what you're talking about is even more powerful because you're aligning the external and internal. It's one brand, one purpose. But it's applied to everybody, both inside and outside the organization, which should become a case study in my next book. So I have to interview you for that. But yeah, that's beautiful. And yeah, I can see how when brands have that purpose and that meaning, everything emanates from that. And therefore, you know, getting back to like marketing strategy and tactics, it becomes a lot easier.

[00:21:08] It's the lens, the perspective with which you can look at everything you do. Is that what happened from a marketing perspective at Redken as well? I know that was a lot. No, no, no, it's good. But the angle that I want to say is that when the purpose is strong, it is both personal and professional. Because the professional thing is sort of like motivation by money. It's good. I mean, who doesn't want money? That's not the issue. And who doesn't want to be professional and competent?

[00:21:38] But when the purpose taps into your personal sense, then it becomes all inclusive. There's some people say, well, you know, don't take this personally or don't take work personally. What? No, wait. You don't want me to actually bring me and my full energy to work? You just want to bring a portion of me like the one with a PhD? Oh, gosh, good luck. I mean, getting engagement when it's not personal.

[00:22:03] But in the notion of marketing, where it becomes interesting is if you feel aligned in a personal way, in a deep personal way, not just, oh, I like it here. It's fun. We have good products. You know, all those types of things are kind of sine qua non. But if you feel like this is me at some level, I would be capable of tattooing myself with this brand. That's how me it is.

[00:22:32] Then when you are translating or working on a marketing program or some Instagram idea, it flows more naturally because you can inject you into it without feeling like you are bastardizing or corrupting the brand essence because you're sort of more one with it.

[00:22:55] But oftentimes I hear things like, well, you should create a really snarky voice for your media or, you know, something outlandish that, you know, gets the ticks or the likes. Well, that's bad on two levels. The first is it may or may not be relevant to the voice of your company from the past.

[00:23:17] And secondly, it's going to be dependent on the individual, probably your agency or perhaps your marketing manager or worse yet, your intern, their sense of humor, their snarkiness, their ability to turn it off. And what happens when they leave? Yeah. Oh, well, the snarkiness, for example. I mean, I know I remember this one brand manager said, oh, I'm so happy because we have a really snarky person who's taking care of it. So, well, actually, I think that's a really bad idea. It's short term.

[00:23:47] You might make the big hit this year, but it's certainly not a long term point. And you're not being consistent as a company. That was the big bad news for her. So it sounds like we're talking about the concept of like brand voice here. So the brand voice has to be aligned with everything else as well as aligned with the actual people in your organization. Yeah. And the audience along your value chain.

[00:24:12] One of the challenges we've got in this new world, in the digital world, is that unlike when I was starting back in the day, where we had communication messages that emanated from three different parts of the company. You had the people who were the sales team selling the commercial message or the marketing message to their customers saying that we got the greatest product.

[00:24:36] You had the shareholder meeting where the CEO was explaining how we've reduced heads. We cut some heads and we're much more efficient and our profitability is much better. And then you had the HR team going out trying to recruit people, say, this is a really great place to work. So back in the day, those three messages were basically discrete. You wouldn't see all three. I mean, of course, as the CEO would.

[00:25:04] But eventually, with the Internet, everything is transparent and available and visible. And when you see it's a great place to work, but my boss is a real arse and they're cutting heads. So I'm working now 16 hours a day. And then the commercial messages don't feel to resonate quite as much because you're just burned out. You're not committed. You're not engaged. Yeah.

[00:25:29] And talking here, of course, about now the concept of employer branding, which has become very mainstream. But I want to go back into the core message of purpose and meaning. One of the things as we were discussing this podcast before we hit the record button was it is important today for people to do as the Delphic maxim and later Plato, and I'll have you describe that, intoned, know thyself. So why is that important and how does that fit into everything you've been talking about?

[00:26:00] Well, this is a very strong point. The most authoritative survey on this topic says that basically only 10 to 15 percent of people know themselves particularly well. And I had on my podcast Michelle Nevarez, and she said it very eloquently. She said, it takes you more than a lifetime to get to know yourself. So permission granted not to know yourself perfectly.

[00:26:26] But the idea of getting to know yourself is supremely important in today's world for two reasons. One is that there's so many things going on. A lot of people are lost. A lot of people lack meaning. And therefore, it's no surprise that we end up with all these issues of mental health. The second reason is that when you know better yourself, you are more likely to be a better leader.

[00:26:56] When you know yourself better, you know when you're tired. You know when you've got issues. Because those issues will come out one way or the other. And typically are received as in being toxic or not friendly or a chip on the shoulder or arrogant or whatever or distant. And these issues that you see in management are mostly derived, in my opinion, from a lack of self-awareness.

[00:27:25] Because if you're aware, you're present. And if you're present, you see the words coming out of your mouth and your actions and how they're affecting other people. And are you doing it in a way that you would like to be treated? Are you able to be so meta because you're present? You're aware of your imperfections. You are aware of who you are. How you're breathing. What's important to you. Where are your emotions right now?

[00:27:52] This will allow you to become a better leader. And it starts, of course, by leading yourself. So self-awareness, self-knowledge is, in my opinion, the core key ingredient and usually missing in making better leaders, better managers, better leaders, starting with leading yourself. So we talked about meaning, purpose, knowing thyself.

[00:28:15] We cannot have this conversation without getting into the concept of play at work, something I know you've become very passionate about, launching a new company or organization. It reminds me, I worked in Japan for the longest time where there was no concept of play other than after work ended, we would all get beers and stuff. And then I joined an American company living in Japan. And the first corporate training, they took us to a studio where we all played the bongo drums together and created a song.

[00:28:44] 20 employees from various departments. It's like, oh, this is fun. It's bonding, right? I get why a lot of companies, probably in Europe as well, have these bonding exercises. But it sounds like, Minter, when you talk about play, it's something not just a tick the box, did we do a group bonding activity once a quarter? Or that's something that is important enough that it should be included more frequently to become an integral part of work.

[00:29:08] So I'd like you to teach us why it's so important and for companies that are listening, how they might be able to actually implement this. Right. Well, play is a lost art. And it feels like so many of us, when we turn, become adults, we have to put the play box, the sandbox away. And then we come serious. We put on the proverbial tie and we become professional and get serious at work. And of course, you need to be serious.

[00:29:38] However, really, and Jordan Peterson is the one who kind of opened my eyes to this, the professor in Toronto. He says that actually play is one of the most important ways, A, of getting trust between yourselves. And two, for couples to stay married. Once you lose the desire of being able to play together, you lose the sparkle.

[00:30:03] In a world that's changing so fast, we need to constantly be learning. And if there's one thing that defines what is a child, it is this, hey, dad, why? Why does that exist? The thirst to learn, that curiosity. And especially in today's world, where we are changing everything all the time everywhere, you need to have curiosity, which means you need to get off the high horse of I know it all and want to learn.

[00:30:32] And amongst the things you do when you play is where you make mistakes. You bump up into limits because there are rules and then there's your body. And in the notion of play, you are always going to learn better when you're amused. I say to some people, if you have passion and purpose in work, you're not working. Yeah. If you love doing what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:57] And the notion of play, I mean, there's obviously the karaoke session, wakarimasu. You know, that kind of experience is great. And so be it. There are a little bit deeper levels of it where you might have an environment that has a more playful environment.

[00:31:14] But I mean, I would suggest that having bright flowers at work is a little bit more playful than having your gray or black and white, very standard, sober, somber type of work environment. And that's a little bit more playful, having bright colors. But your desire to be more playful. I mean, most people will remember Lego.

[00:31:37] And the CEO, Niels Christensen, he talks about and one of their great products is called Serious Play. And so it's amazing how by taking things out of your standard way of thinking and by being in a more playful mode, using Lego pieces to create a strategy. I've done this many times with the most serious of people, consultants, lawyers.

[00:32:02] And it turns out that once you get them into the mode and you create an environment where it's safe enough for them to feel like, oh, well, it's okay. I can take off my tie and be the kid again. Well, things happen. We create a different relationship with one another. And in an environment where trust is very low, motivation is very low.

[00:32:23] So I believe that introducing more play into the workplace, led by example, by the person up top or the people up top, is one of the great ways to re-dynamize, re-jig. But it can't be just a foosball table. It needs to be a sort of a mindset of play, like a sense of humor, by being a little bit more playful, a little bit less rigid around the edges.

[00:32:49] And these are examples of how to bring more play, more creativity, obviously more innovation into the workplace. So not just innovation in product, but innovation how we do things. And maybe instead of always doing it as we've already done it, which is you're always going to get what you always got, find ways to change the way you operate. One of the things I did when my senior team, I remember, is we changed the location of our senior executive meeting once a week, the board meeting.

[00:33:19] And we would do it in the warehouse. We would do it outside. We'd do it in a restaurant. And by changing different environments, you necessarily think differently because we are going to be impacted by what's around our context. Yeah. Minter, this is all so powerful. And it really taps into our human element. And when we play, we learn, we grow, we innovate. So many great takeaways here.

[00:33:44] But, you know, we can't end this conversation without us understanding your funneling your play into paddle, which a lot of my American friends. Well, I started playing pickleball recently and I've had some friends of a Gen Xers say, Neil, you went to the dark side. But it's actually a lot of fun. And it's the perfect amount of exercise. But I believe in Europe that paddle is the rage and you are right in the middle of it, Minter. So tell us how you got started with it and what are you doing?

[00:34:13] And maybe those listeners in Europe want to want to join in the fun that you're having. Right. Well, thank you for asking, Neil. So paddle is a sport that was invented in 1969 in Mexico. My father was friends with the guy who created Enrique Corcuera. Oh, wow. And I started playing in 1974 in Marabilla. And I come from a family of racket sports. My father was a very good tennis player.

[00:34:37] And we were always playing tennis or squash or, you know, beach paddle ball or real tennis or, and of course, paddle tennis. And in the 70s, many members of my family had a paddle court, actually, which was very different from the one that exists today. Anyway, paddle all of a sudden took off. It's now in over 130 countries in the world. I mean, we're talking about growing 20% every year. We've got 40 or so million players.

[00:35:05] We've got several professional worldwide leagues going on. And it's coming to England this year, finally. Some of them are a big deal. And the United States has already held a few of these. There are pockets of strong paddle markets in the United States, specifically. In Miami, you have some in New York, San Diego, Houston, Las Vegas. It's beginning to take on a serious layer in the United States.

[00:35:34] But the thing about paddle is that it's easy to get started and it's hard to get good. So it's got lots of complexities in it. And one of the things that I'm doing, Neil, is I'm bringing the joy of paddle into business. So one of the ways to introduce play and through the play, figure out ways to improve the way we work. So an example, I mean, I have 19 different things I bring into each company based on paddle.

[00:36:01] And one of them is, for example, how to introduce more counterintuitive thinking in your company. Typically, counterintuitive thinking is a great source of innovative ideas. In paddle tennis, one of the, I mean, there are many reasons or ways that in the game of paddle, you need to be counterintuitive. For example, when somebody is about to hit the ball hard at you, one of the things that really will work will be to run at the person hitting the ball.

[00:36:30] Obviously, you want to move a little bit outside of the strict direction of the ball. But you run towards the person hitting the ball hard as heck at you, which is very counterintuitive. And so there are a number of these examples that would allow people to try to become, activate their body in the counterintuitive way. And when you are more dynamic and kinesthetic, then you're going to start learning this idea in a different way.

[00:36:56] And then we bring different experiences on the court the following day to understand how we can bring it into the business environment. So I've got about six customers, one of which is in the United States, where I'm doing this. So I do this at the executive team. I bring them up, some of them. Even if you play great tennis, there's still a lot to learn to deal with because paddle tennis, unlike pickle or lawn tennis, has walls all around it.

[00:37:23] So you have a lot of strokes you hit directly, but there's a vast amount of strokes that you're hitting once they've bounced off the wall. So it requires a whole mental gymnastics and physical gymnastics, really, to be able to figure out how to get the ball. And 70% of the shots you don't need to hit hard. But what happens is your amygdala kicks in, you get all excited, and you start hitting the ball, and you make a mistake.

[00:37:46] So being present with yourself in the game, getting into flow, cool thing in any sport, is something you can actually realize reasonably quickly in paddle tennis. So paddle is an innovative sport. It's very likely to be in the Olympics, probably 2032, if not before in 2028. It's a sport that's accessible.

[00:38:13] You don't have to have any experience in a racket sport previously to have fun in the very first time you play it. I mean, I go to England, where it rains constantly, right? Most of the courts are outdoor. I will see people, it's two degrees, minus two degrees Celsius today in London. I saw people playing minus two outdoors on a soggy court because they have so much fun playing it.

[00:38:43] And I mean, this is a sad state of affairs that we don't have more covered courts and warmer weather. However, it just shows you just how kooky and so many people get addicted to it. It's massively fun. So it's a great way to bring play, joy into the workplace. And at the same time, so have some unabashed fun. But then also think about what's happening on the court. Another thing that's really important in paddle, which is specific to paddle,

[00:39:12] is that basically 99.8% of the time you play with a partner. And so when you're playing with a partner, then you have to develop a relationship, create trust, communicate with your partner, which is, by the way, how businesses work. Businesses only work through the people you're with, right? Arnie Miller, the founder of a company called Matrix, said, what we do is we move the people who move the products.

[00:39:39] And if you move the people who move the products, then it'll take care of itself. So it's all about people. And the joy, paddle also, being a Hispanic, is a lot of fun already just in the DNA of the brand. That's fascinating. Definitely we'll have to look into that. Just from a very practical standpoint, you know, with pickleball, you basically split a tennis court in half. You have these mobile nets that come out. And it's been very easy. I've seen that pop up, you know, in local communities here in Southern California.

[00:40:07] With paddle, does it require a separate court, like a separate racquetball court or a squash court? Or are they refurbishing other, are they refurbishing like racquetball courts into a paddle court? How's that working? Well, sort of the truth is it's far more expensive and more, it takes more investment to make a paddle court. They're glass walls. So it's a separate entity. Got it. It's a wholly different thing. The good news is, well, you can also find cheaper versions, cheaper courts on the secondhand market.

[00:40:37] But on balance, it's a bigger deal. Well, if you're going to a sports club and your club offers lawn tennis, most of the American clubs are now, they've gotten cottoned on to the idea of adding pickleball. It's very simple to do. Yeah. You basically don't even need to sacrifice anything. Paddle tennis, you can fit two paddle tennis courts on a easily, two and a half actually, on a tennis court, lawn tennis court.

[00:41:04] So you can, as a club owner, you can have more of your members playing like you can with pickleball. The difference is that paddle, unlike pickleball, in my opinion, is a more sophisticated game. I mean, I've been playing for 50 years paddle tennis. That's amazing. And I still feel I have so much to learn. And I'm a competent player. And the game is evolving.

[00:41:25] And here's the other thing that really, Neil, that I love about paddle is that it requires, it necessarily requires humility to be able to progress. Because you necessarily will be faced with shots that will be too hard for you, necessarily. And the pros have to deal with this as well. Because on the side of the court, there's chicken wire. If you know platform tennis in the northeast of the United States.

[00:41:50] And so when the ball, which is a little less pressurized tennis ball, bounces on the chicken wire, it can go literally up, down, in and around, hit you, you miss it. And it's not very often that you have sports where you can absolutely whiff a ball at the highest level. So remembering to have humility is a beautiful thing. And I would argue a lot of people could do with having a little bit more humility. Yeah, well said.

[00:42:16] I like that element of randomness, which, I mean, life has a random element to it as well. So that's beautiful. Well, we'll definitely have to check that out. Hey, Minter, this has been great. If people want to read your books, companies want to hire you as a speaker, or they want to find out more about what you're doing in Paddle. You might have multiple websites, but where can we send people? Right. Well, MinterDial is my sort of hub.com. I have thejoyofpaddle.com, where I, of course, broadcast my podcast, which has been going for two years.

[00:42:45] And talk about the offer that we have with my associate, Camille, who's this wonderful lady from France. And I have a new startup that's humming. Hopefully, it will be coming out in June around Paddle. Anyway, more on that another time. But that's basically it. My books and stuff like that. You can find me. I have the benefit of having a weirdo name, MinterDial. Yeah, I think that was the first question I asked you when I met you the first time is, what's up with your name? Is this real? Is it like a stage name? Or, yeah. It's in my passport.

[00:43:15] Yeah, we'll have to have a comment. I met someone yesterday who is Vietnamese. And I know this is a little bit off topic, but just the randomness of names. She said she has an older sister who lives in Japan. Her name is Yuko Fukuyama. She has a Japanese. And I'm like, well, a Japanese freighter happened to find this Vietnamese boat back in the 70s and brought them in. They became naturalized. They got new names. And it made me really think about the randomness of names. But anyway, I digress. But, Minter, this has been awesome. Thank you so much. Can't wait to see you again in London. And until then, happy paddling.

[00:43:45] And I'll be sticking with my pickleball for the near term. But I'll be on the lookout for where I can find a paddle court near where I am. They're definitely available. Sayonara. Thank you very much. Arigatou gozaimashita. Arigatou gozaimashita. All right. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. And, hey, if you haven't already, why not hit that subscribe button? And let's take our relationship one step further. Why not recommend this podcast to others? If you were to ask me, Neil, I've got a lot of value out of this. How can I help you?

[00:44:12] I would say go to whatever podcast app you're listening to this podcast in. Give it a five-star rating and leave a sentence or two review so that others can help discover this podcast. And when you do, please send me a screenshot. I'm actually in the process of developing a community that is exclusive but free for those that go out of their way to recommend my podcast, my books, and what have you in public. So there you have it. Email me your screenshot, neil at neilshafer.com.

[00:44:42] I'd love to hear from you and continue the conversation offline. And that is it for another exciting episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. This is your digital marketing coach, Neil Schafer, signing off. You've been listening to Your Digital Marketing Coach. Questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast.neilshafer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes at neilshafer.com to tap into the 400

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