In today's episode I sit down with Nicholas Bruneau, a seasoned communications consultant and author of Engage with Impact, to discuss the transformative power of digital advocacy. Nicholas shares his vast experience working with organizations like the United Nations and the World Bank, offering practical strategies for raising awareness, engaging communities, and driving fundraising efforts through digital channels. Our conversation highlights the universal applicability of these strategies, making this episode a must-listen for both nonprofit and for-profit professionals.
Embrace the power of authentic storytelling and innovation in a post-pandemic world that values raw, unscripted content. Learn from companies like Candid and initiatives like the Malala Fund’s Assembly, and discover the art of leveraging email for meaningful two-way communication. We also tackle the challenges of transitioning to short-form video content and utilizing AI responsibly, ensuring your digital initiatives are not just effective but also credible and trustworthy. Join us for an episode packed with actionable insights and real-world examples that can elevate your digital marketing strategy to new heights.
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- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- All My Podcast Show Notes: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
Speaker 1: Ever wonder how nonprofits like Patagonia and
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the Malala Fund harness the power of digital tools to drive
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real-world impact, from leveraging AI and video
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storytelling to building trust and engaging donor communities.
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This episode is packed with strategies and insights to
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revolutionize your digital-first approach.
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Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just getting started
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, or you are not even doing anything related to nonprofits,
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trust me you're going to discover some actionable tips
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and inspiring examples to elevate your campaigns, but only
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if you stay tuned to this next episode of the your Digital
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Marketing Coach podcast.
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Speaker 2: Digital social media content, influencer marketing,
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blogging, podcasting, vlogging, tiktoking, linkedin, twitter,
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facebook, instagram, youtube, seo, sem, ppc, email marketing
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there's a lot to cover.
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Whether you're a marketing professional, entrepreneur or
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business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert
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advice.
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Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neil Schaefer
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is your digital marketing coach , helping you grow your business
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with digital first marketing, one episode at a time.
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This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neil Schafer.
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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, this is your digital marketing coach,
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neil Schafer.
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Welcome to episode number 375 of this podcast.
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As always, I want to begin with the latest marketing industry
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news.
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So we all know that social commerce something we've talked
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about for a long time has become a reality with TikTok Shop.
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Now YouTube is planning to take on TikTok Shop with an expanded
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Shopify partnership, shopify being really the definitive CMS
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for consumer e-commerce.
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Today, I am looking to launch my own bookstore with my books,
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as well as offering consulting, coaching services and my
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masterminds group coaching communities all on a Shopify
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store myself.
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And it really is.
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With its integrations with TikTok, with Facebook, with
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Google ads, facebook ads, it really is the definitive
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e-commerce platform and it's really good to see that if you
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are a Shopify owner, well, that's going to become easier
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for you to generate more revenue from YouTube.
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So we'll see where that goes, but I think that's really really
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exciting news for e-commerce and TikTok has proven that, when
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done right, social commerce can happen, and we'll see what
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YouTube does there.
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Another interesting update is from Instagram and obviously
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last episode I talked all about Instagram, but now they have
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decided to make views their primary metric.
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I'm not sure when this is going to kick in.
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But whether it is a post or whether it is a video, you will
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begin to see the number of views , which I'm assuming is
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basically like impressions, like what you see on Twitter, what
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you see on LinkedIn, almost becoming a standard, so that
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even if you only get one or two or three likes, well, if you got
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10 views or impressions, maybe you'll feel a little bit better
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and really, the more impressions you're getting, the more
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engagement you're getting right.
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So the idea being that the algorithm is only going to give
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you more impressions, more views , if you're getting engagement
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on your current content.
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The challenge, obviously, is understanding that engagement I
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often get.
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People on Twitter say, neil, your tweets don't get many likes
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or retweets, but I say you don't see how many clicks I'm
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getting, right, it's the same thing with videos we don't know
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if people are staying for a second, for 15 seconds, how the
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algorithms measure that differently.
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But one thing is for sure the more views we're getting, the
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more impact we have, and you know we're going to have to
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become used to analyzing that and I think also the.
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You know, getting rid of likes is something that Instagram did
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a long time ago in some markets and you know you do have the
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option on your profile as well.
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Maybe we're all moving into that.
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Let's worry less about likes and just try to get more
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impressions in the algorithm for our content and be done with
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all the nonsense regarding chasing vanity metrics.
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Let there just be one metric.
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So that is an interesting development.
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We'll see what that looks like.
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We know what it looks like with reels.
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We'll see what it looks like with posts.
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And then we had Google, who they seem to be increasing the
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frequency of their major core updates At least that's what it
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seems like to me but they released a new core update this
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is for search engine, obviously in August.
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And then there were some bugs and, just like any other search
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engine algorithm change, maybe your business saw a little
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change in August.
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I really didn't, but if you were affected, you know, wait
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and see, wait until things sort of even out.
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And, as always, google's saying focus on the quality of your
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content rather than technical fixes, although obviously
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technical SEO is important, but always be focusing on the
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content quality.
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Obviously, the helpfulness, the usefulness, eeat, telling your
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own individual perspective based on your own real experience,
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all of these things they keep talking about.
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And in fact, there was another interesting article last week
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that from the SEO advice world that Google was saying that a
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lot of these technical site audit tools really have no
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impact on SEO.
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And you know I couldn't agree a hundred percent more no impact
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on SEO.
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And I couldn't agree 100% more.
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It's funny because I used to use SEMrush and SEMrush was
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always just like dinging my website left and right, right.
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And then I moved over to Ahrefs because they have a free SEO
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audit tool or a site audit tool and I'm at like 98 or 99%.
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So how can one audit tool rank it one way and another another
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way?
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It just shows how, at the end of the day, these are all tools
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with unique algorithms and you need to figure out what's right
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for your website.
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So I thought this was really great advice.
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You know a lot of problems that people have like with a tool
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like SEM rushes.
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They log in, they begin with the site audit tool, they find
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so many issues that they just get so bogged down.
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They never get to really optimizing their content and
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understanding you know what keywords they should be
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targeting to build their library of content, et cetera, et
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cetera.
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So don't like everything else I talk about here, don't get lost
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in the weeds, and I'm really glad that Google came out and
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said something about it because, in all honesty, I'm currently
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using Ubersuggest, neil Patel's SEO tool.
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I do not even look at the site audit, I just use the free
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Ahrefs site audit and it does a great job.
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And if I have too many broken links, too many broken images,
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those are the times when my 99% goes down to 98%.
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Those are the times I go in and make a quick fix.
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So if you're interested in receiving this news on a timely
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fashion, make sure you subscribe to my newsletter.
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Go to neilschafercom slash newsletter, where I provide this
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as well as a lot of other useful content that can help
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your digital marketing efforts.
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All right, so for personal news , those that follow me on social
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media may know that I have been asking for your advice on a
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book cover, and the book cover is not digital thread, so maybe
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I should begin with digital threads.
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The Kickstarter campaign successfully funded.
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It is currently basically waiting for Kickstarter to send
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me the funds so that I can start facilitating the books.
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The ebook is done, the paperback book is done, the
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hardcover that should have been done is done, but they forgot to
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glue the cover or the sleeve onto the book.
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So I'm waiting to get a final version of that, which is
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currently in the mail, and then the companion workbooks had to
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make some changes in the interior of the cover.
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This is the paper edition.
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I'm waiting for confirmation of that as well, but it's all
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starting to come together, with the exception of the audio book,
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which I am getting geared up to get started with and really
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can't wait to get started with.
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For those of you that were not part of the Kickstarter, the
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plan is to publish this book October 1st, although it may
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come out a little earlier.
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If you are a book reviewer or you're on NetGalley, you can
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find my book there.
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Reach out to me for a review copy.
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But yeah, it's all coming together.
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But the poll that I did was about this other LinkedIn ebook
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that I have.
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If you're not familiar, you should go to neilschafercom
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slash freebies.
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That's F-R-E-E-B-I-E-S and that is where I house all of my free
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ebooks.
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So I have this ebook called Maximizing LinkedIn for Business
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that I revise annually, and because I wrote two books on
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LinkedIn, I sort of owe it to my community to continue to
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maintain this ebook.
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I also do it because every year I speak for a client and it's
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actually mandated in our contract that I'm going to
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update that ebook.
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But this time I decided to take it one step further, expand upon
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the content and really make it maximizing LinkedIn for business
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growth.
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So that is going to be an ebook that you're going to see coming
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out on Amazon pretty soon.
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That's going to be ebook only.
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I do plan to make a paperback out of it.
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But compared to my other books which are, you know, digital
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threads is like almost 70 words, this is a 16 word.
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A very, very short, short and sweet, I think, and very
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actionable tactical book to really help you with your
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personal branding geared towards marketers, entrepreneurs, sales
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, business development, business owners, what have you.
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So can't wait to release that.
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Be on the lookout for more news from me.
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Make sure you sign up to neilschafercom slash newsletter
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or keep listening to this podcast and I will keep you
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updated.
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So very, very busy at the Schaefer office and let's dive
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into today's interview.
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So today we're going to be diving deep in a digital first
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strategies for nonprofits and, as I said in the teaser, you
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know I have worked with nonprofits, I work with
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for-profits.
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I think it's equally applicable the advice that you're going to
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hear today, so don't tune out just because it's nonprofits.
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Today, we feature insights from communications expert Nicholas
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Bruno.
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Together, we explore the power of personal stories and
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emotional triggers in engaging donors, the value of persistent,
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long-term campaigns and the crucial role of a clear mission
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statement your brand values, your brand story, why you do
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what you do, and whether it's corporate branding or personal
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branding, I think it's equally important.
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We also will discuss the impact of AI and social media
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algorithms, the rising importance of video content and
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the challenges of maintaining credibility in the digital age.
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Trust for nonprofits is just as important as it is for
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for-profits.
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Right, nicholas is going to shed some light on creating
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impactful communications, with examples from global
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organizations like Patagonia, the World Wildlife Foundation
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and UNDP.
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We'll also touch on the shift towards raw and authentic
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content, the importance of continuous Foundation and UNDP.
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We'll also touch on the shift towards raw and authentic
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content, the importance of continuous innovation and the
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need for a strategic approach to digital tools.
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So, whether you're from a nonprofit or a for-profit, I
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believe that this interview is going to be packed with a lot of
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actionable insights to enhance your digital marketing efforts.
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So here we go to the interview as we unpack the future of
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nonprofit communications and the power of storytelling in
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driving social impact, with my special guest, nicholas Bruneau.
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Speaker 2: You're listening to your Digital Marketing Coach.
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This is Neil Schaefer.
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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, this is Neil Schaefer, and welcome to
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another live stream edition of the your Digital Marketing Coach
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podcast.
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So I want to say it was about a year, a year and a half ago
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there was a European communications consultant that
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reached out to me and he said, neil, I am writing a book on
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digital communications and I would love to interview you for
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that book and include your thoughts so that this book
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becomes a more inclusive piece of work that represents a lot of
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great thought that's out there.
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So I said, sure, let's do it.
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And that actually turned into this book that was just released
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recently, called Engage with Impact.
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Today we have the author who interviewed me, engage with
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impact.
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Today we have the author who interviewed me, nicholas Bruno,
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on this podcast to talk more about that.
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Now, if you don't know Nicholas well, he's based in Europe I
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believe based in Belgium, Nicholas.
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You're going to have to correct me on that, and I didn't hear
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any European accent when I spoke with him, so we're going to
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have to ask him about his background as well.
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But Nicholas is a communications consultant with
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decades of experience in social impact communications.
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His expertise lies at the intersection of digital
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communications and purpose-led marketing, and today's topic is
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about the digital-first nonprofit, but I will remind you
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that what we talk about, what I talk about, is universal.
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We might focus on nonprofits, but I believe that all of the
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strategies and tactics and ideas that we talk about are equally
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applicable to for-profits.
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So, even if you're not with a nonprofit, not affiliated with
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one or work for one, I urge you to keep listening, because I
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know that there's going to be a lot of golden takeaways during
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this interview.
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So, nicholas, welcome to the your Digital Marketing Coach
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podcast.
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Speaker 3: Hi, neil, thank you.
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Thanks for having me.
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Speaker 1: Oh, of course, it's an honor to have you on stage
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here and, like with all my guests, I gave a brief
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introduction to you, but I love to give you the opportunity to
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introduce yourself and I think, most importantly, how did you
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get into doing what you do today ?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so first of all , as you've noticed, I have a
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Canadian accent, so I'm originally from Canada.
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That's what it was, and I am now based in Portugal.
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So I'm working from here, remotely, currently for the
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United Nations, but previously for other intergovernmental
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organizations like the World Bank or the European Commission,
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and then also some nonprofits and other associations.
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And so what I've done is I've been working, you know, for
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almost a decade now on digital advocacy, digital comms, for
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basically the social impact sector, and then, I think you
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know the book just evolved.
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I just realized, you know, there was really a need to talk
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about all these stories, all these organizations that were
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changing the way that they were communicating online,
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particularly after COVID.
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Speaker 1: So, social impact, digital impact I'm sure that
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that is a word that's used a lot in the nonprofit and in the
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government organization world, but I think that for-profit
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companies use that as well.
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Right, engagement in social media and newer generations that
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actually want to align their consumer behaviors with social
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impact.
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So let's begin with, just for those that aren't really
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familiar with the term how do you define social impact,
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digital impact, in the lens of the work that you do?
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Speaker 3: I mean, I think it depends on your organization,
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right?
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If you're an organization, for example, if you're a nonprofit
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and you're looking to both to raise awareness about the
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programs that you're doing but also to raise funding, then
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digital is an important tool for nonprofits to raise funds, an
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important tool for nonprofits to raise funds For international
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organizations.
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It's raising awareness and also creating engagement with their
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community.
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So that can be, you know, trying to change policy, trying
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to get support, but then also, you know, to educate
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stakeholders in specific areas where the organization is
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working for, for example, now I'm working with the United
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Nations Data for Now initiative.
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It's focused on basically the statistics offices and then we
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help the statistics offices to improve their innovative
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technologies in data collection, for example, innovative
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technologies in data collection, for example.
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So our audience there is statistics offices and also the
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partner organizations, even like , maybe, microsoft, who works a
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lot with the data on a large scale.
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So it's trying to find those stakeholders and then engaging
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with them online in sort of interesting ways, using
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storytelling, using a lot of the different tactics.
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So there is a lot of content marketing, for example, where
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you need to sort of showcase okay, this is what we're doing
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and this is why it's important.
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Speaker 1: Gotcha.
00:15:55
So awareness and engagement, and then fundraising, which is
00:16:00
very similar to, I think, what a lot of companies want to do as
00:16:03
well.
00:16:03
Once again, I like to remind people that these strategies are
00:16:06
as equally applicable for for-profit companies.
00:16:09
So awareness, engagement with fundraising, and this is almost
00:16:14
and I think you'd agree two different topics of leveraging
00:16:17
social media for fundraising versus awareness and engagement.
00:16:21
So, for the fundraising, I think the way that the success or
00:16:25
non-success can be measured is by the amount of money you raise
00:16:29
, obviously, or the number of people, or the number of new
00:16:32
people that you were able to raise money from or
00:16:34
organizations.
00:16:35
I'm curious and this is sort of the million-dollar question,
00:16:39
which is the awareness and the engagement how do the World Bank
00:16:43
, the United Nations, how do these organizations measure the
00:16:46
success of those initiatives?
00:16:49
Because inevitably there's funding that needs to be applied
00:16:52
in order to do that work, in order to hire people like
00:16:54
yourself, and the tools, what have you?
00:16:55
So I'm just curious as how they view that.
00:16:57
Is there something that for-profit companies are missing
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out on?
00:17:00
Because maybe they see that more as a cost center instead of
00:17:03
a value add center, and I'd love to get your feedback on
00:17:05
that.
00:17:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, as far as the success for the digital
00:17:10
activities, it's all about first setting much like you will do
00:17:15
setting some KPIs, setting some key objectives for the work that
00:17:19
you're doing, so that you're focused, laser focused, on that.
00:17:24
And so, for example, with the World Bank, perhaps it's for the
00:17:28
research division, it's the number of downloads, right, so
00:17:32
they're trying to sort of making sure that they're reaching the
00:17:35
right people at scale.
00:17:37
However, you know, in the case of the World Bank, they also
00:17:42
realized, well, actually we're not meeting those KPIs, where
00:17:45
there was a study done about eight years ago that showed that
00:17:50
basically a lot of reports were not being read.
00:17:52
So what did they do?
00:17:53
They refurbished their websites .
00:17:56
They also focused on SEO, so a lot of search engine
00:18:00
optimization, seo content writing and basically did a
00:18:05
whole training campaign internally so that their
00:18:09
research, their blogs and everything was SEO focused, so
00:18:15
that they would be on top of basically any search results
00:18:19
where, when you're looking for sustainable development in
00:18:24
Africa or financing projects in Africa, now the World Bank is
00:18:30
top of the Google search results , but previously they were not.
00:18:35
So it's really kind of I think it will depend on the
00:18:39
organization and it'll depend on basically which area they're
00:18:44
working in.
00:18:45
But it's you know much like you know the work that you're doing
00:18:49
.
00:18:49
It's setting those goals and then seeing okay, how do we get
00:18:53
there, how are we getting the awareness and then reaching
00:18:55
those KPIs.
00:18:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a fantastic example, because I'm
00:18:59
really deep in finishing my next book and it begins with people
00:19:05
or businesses that reached out to me for influence and
00:19:07
marketing, because I wrote the Age of Influence but in order to
00:19:10
reach their objectives, was that the right channel?
00:19:12
And this is a great example.
00:19:14
You want more brand awareness?
00:19:15
Well, maybe SEO is going to be a better long-term bet, a better
00:19:18
use of funds than social media, to meet that same objective.
00:19:22
And I love that example because I think it's very true in real
00:19:25
life.
00:19:26
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:19:29
Speaker 1: Sometimes we assume that something's going to do
00:19:30
better, but I think at the end of the day, marketing is this,
00:19:33
or communications is sort of half art, half science, and
00:19:36
sometimes we forget about that science part of getting the data
00:19:39
and comparing things and making those experiments.
00:19:41
So that was a great example.
00:19:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to add to that as well, is the fact
00:19:45
that you know, what infuriates me, and I'm sure yourself as
00:19:48
well, is when people just say, oh, when it's when social media
00:19:51
is just like a or digital is just a box ticking exercise,
00:19:56
when people say, ok, you know we need this out, and then there's
00:19:59
no strategy behind it, there's no objective behind it, and then
00:20:03
you know it's basically like, ok, we just need to show people.
00:20:06
And then, you know, have a couple of tweets.
00:20:09
And I think that what you know, you and I are trying to do is
00:20:13
trying to sort of go beyond that , right, because it's, of course
00:20:17
, maybe, you know, instrumental to tweet something, but what's
00:20:20
the bigger context and what is your objective for that tweet?
00:20:23
Where does it sit at the?
00:20:25
You know, if you're looking at the funnel of awareness, you
00:20:29
know, is the top funnel or are you really looking for people to
00:20:32
get an engagement?
00:20:33
So I think it's really having that down pat.
00:20:36
And then I think a lot of organizations, whether it's
00:20:39
nonprofits or even, you know, the business sector, they don't
00:20:42
have.
00:20:42
They don't have that.
00:20:43
There's a lot of, I think, you know, bad planning from numerous
00:20:48
businesses but also nonprofits that don't see the big picture.
00:20:53
So, yeah, I think that's key and I think that should always
00:20:59
be behind everything that you do online.
00:21:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am not a PR or communications person by any
00:21:05
means, but I do believe in the power of relationships because I
00:21:08
have a background in B2B sales, where people buy from people,
00:21:11
not from companies, and in my new book I introduced something
00:21:15
called the funnel of digital relationships.
00:21:17
And it's exactly that Social media does play a critical role
00:21:20
almost at every stage of the funnel, but there's other pieces
00:21:23
as well, like email, like SEO, like content marketing.
00:21:26
So I want to switch gears a little bit, because you had
00:21:29
mentioned that you were looking at how communication has changed
00:21:33
since COVID, and this is also a topic.
00:21:36
In fact, that term, digital first is actually in the
00:21:39
subtitle of my upcoming book.
00:21:41
So I fully lean into it and believe it as well, and I think
00:21:45
my view is that we've seen this acceleration of the digital
00:21:47
transformation and companies and organizations are always
00:21:50
playing catch up.
00:21:50
How have you seen things change in your world since COVID
00:21:54
vis-a-vis communications and social media?
00:21:57
Speaker 3: Gosh.
00:21:57
Where to start?
00:21:58
Where?
00:21:59
to begin right.
00:22:00
I think that you know, the first thing that I would say is
00:22:05
the organizations have had to, they've been obliged to
00:22:08
experiment, you know, they've been obliged to to try new, uh,
00:22:12
new platforms, new ways of doing things, and so that is is
00:22:17
really sort of a great, a great thing, and those that have
00:22:20
succeeded are the ones that are have said okay, you know, we'll
00:22:24
accept, let let's try different ways of doing things.
00:22:28
And maybe it's not always going to work, maybe we're going to
00:22:31
fall flat on our face, but we're going to learn from it.
00:22:34
And so, for example, in the book there was a great example
00:22:40
of a nonprofit called Candid, which they said okay, we should
00:22:43
be doing some short form videos, but they didn't know where to
00:22:45
start.
00:22:45
So basically, they said, okay, we should be doing some short
00:22:46
form videos, but they didn't know where to start.
00:22:47
So basically, they said, okay, let's do an experiment, let's do
00:22:52
a three month very specific experiments where we have a
00:22:56
certain number of videos.
00:22:57
We're not going to spend all our time on it, but we know
00:22:59
we're going to do some key videos and then we're going to
00:23:01
measure which ones are working, in which platform, which kind of
00:23:05
content, and then you know they really tracked it, so they were
00:23:08
able to really, you know, have a successful sort of experiment
00:23:14
that allowed them to see, actually, you know, we thought
00:23:16
we were going to, you know, get a lot more success on TikTok,
00:23:19
but it's actually YouTube Shorts that's really helping.
00:23:22
Maybe that's where our audience is.
00:23:23
So they really had that kind of experimental approach and I
00:23:27
think those are the organizations that are
00:23:29
succeeding.
00:23:29
Those are the ones that are doing great things Because, as
00:23:33
you know, you know, digital is going so fast these days that
00:23:37
you need to experiment, otherwise you're going to fall
00:23:39
behind.
00:23:40
So you need to sort of have that mentality, and that's so.
00:23:43
That's where I talked about in my book, about, like the startup
00:23:45
mentality.
00:23:46
You know, startup is going to be like they're going to be
00:23:48
experimenting and they, you know , fail fast.
00:23:50
You know, let's do things and then try different things and
00:23:54
see what works.
00:23:55
It's like throwing spaghetti on the wall.
00:23:57
Of course you do it, and if you're in a political
00:24:00
organization, you're not going to go crazy.
00:24:01
You're just going to do some things that are very in a
00:24:05
controlled manner, right, you're just going to do some things
00:24:09
that are very in a controlled manner, right.
00:24:10
And then what I've also seen is you know, before you had all
00:24:15
these perfectly scripted videos of, you know, let's say that,
00:24:17
the head of the United Nations speaking, whereas now you know
00:24:21
he's even going to be doing videos with his handheld mobile
00:24:25
phone.
00:24:25
Sure, thanks to the pandemic, we're more open and we actually
00:24:30
want to see more raw footage, more real kind of like footage
00:24:34
that really shows kind of what things are like on the ground,
00:24:37
as opposed to like a beautiful corporate videos.
00:24:40
And I've seen I did a study to look at that and the ones that
00:24:44
are less scripted and more raw are the ones that perform the
00:24:49
best.
00:24:50
Speaker 1: Wow, I'd love to see that data, but I mean a few
00:24:52
different things I want to unpack there.
00:24:53
But I am in, you know, 100% agreement about everything you
00:24:57
said, and in fact, you know, we've never met in person, and
00:25:00
if you were to look at my social media profile picture, it's me
00:25:02
in a black suit and navy blue.
00:25:04
You know Brooks Brothers shirt, but I realized after COVID that
00:25:07
people do want more raw, and when I dress more casual, I have
00:25:11
comments like Neil, you're so much more relatable on camera.
00:25:13
I even talk about this in my upcoming book, so you might've
00:25:16
been surprised to see me in a t-shirt here, but I am a
00:25:18
Southern California native and this is how I work right.
00:25:21
So to me it's just natural and it is in line with the raw,
00:25:25
authentic that people want to see.
00:25:26
I'm curious, though even myself and maybe yourself as well,
00:25:30
nicholas.
00:25:31
We come from an era before social media, or when social
00:25:35
media just began.
00:25:36
It was mainly text-based.
00:25:37
When it went image-based with Instagram, it was a challenge,
00:25:41
and I talked a lot about that in Maximize your Social, which I
00:25:43
wrote like a decade ago.
00:25:44
We have this new challenge with short form video right, and
00:25:47
something I am still trying to do more of.
00:25:48
I can never do enough of, and I think that probably 90% of the
00:25:51
organizations you work with are probably the same.
00:25:53
How did Candid start the process?
00:25:56
Was it and I see it with a lot of companies it's a passionate
00:26:00
younger generation, a Gen Z or maybe a younger millennial that
00:26:05
is an active user themselves that pushes the organization
00:26:08
into it?
00:26:08
Or did it begin in another way?
00:26:10
Just curious for those companies and people listening
00:26:13
to this podcast or watching the live stream of how, if they
00:26:17
haven't gotten started yet, what was the trigger for Candid to
00:26:19
start doing that and finding success?
00:26:21
Speaker 3: In my view, it was a social media manager that had
00:26:24
that sort of curiosity to do something.
00:26:27
What they also have at Candid is they have similar to what
00:26:32
Google has, which is, I think, the 10% rule, where you're
00:26:36
allowed to work 10% of the time on new projects that aren't
00:26:41
necessarily directly related with your work to encourage
00:26:44
innovation.
00:26:45
That's, for example, how Gmail started and all these kind of
00:26:49
different things.
00:26:49
So they also have that kind of like you could call it a fund
00:26:54
that allows people to make these experiments and take these
00:26:58
chances on new things.
00:27:00
So I think it's not many organizations have that, but I
00:27:03
think it's something that you know is really helps people to
00:27:08
have the flexibility to do new things.
00:27:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think in marketing it is as you mentioned
00:27:13
things move so fast that that mentality is so important.
00:27:17
And I know that marketing communications, pr, is often
00:27:20
understaffed, under-resourced, so you might not be able to find
00:27:23
the time.
00:27:23
But, nicholas, I myself I mean Fridays and today's a Friday.
00:27:26
We're doing this interview on a Friday, but Fridays are my days
00:27:29
for R&D, to really dig deep, experiment, try new things,
00:27:33
learn new things, and I think that for some people that may
00:27:36
have to do it over the weekend or maybe on weeknights, but it
00:27:39
really is critical to continue to innovate.
00:27:41
Because, just you know, I have children, two Gen Z well, one is
00:27:46
Gen Z, alpha, borderline but the language they use is
00:27:50
different and with every iteration of a TikTok trend, the
00:27:54
language they use continues to evolve right, and that's the
00:27:57
core communication.
00:27:57
So if we're not always evolving like that, at some point
00:28:01
there's this huge gap and you know, kudos to Candid for having
00:28:04
that culture.
00:28:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it really is like a culture change
00:28:08
and you really have to sort of adopt, you know, this kind of
00:28:13
vulnerability where you, where you actually accept that you
00:28:16
know not everything's going to be perfect, and then that's why,
00:28:20
for example, in in the book I talk a lot about you know,
00:28:24
accepting your mistakes and learning from them Right, and
00:28:26
then actually even like celebrating your mistakes and
00:28:27
saying you know accepting your mistakes and learning from them
00:28:28
right, and then actually even like celebrating your mistakes
00:28:30
and saying, you know, having that culture where you can
00:28:32
celebrate okay, we did this campaign, we wanted to do this,
00:28:36
but we actually didn't, didn't get there, whereas you know what
00:28:39
happens now.
00:28:40
A lot is people in organizations they will only
00:28:44
show the good side, you know, of the results of a campaign and
00:28:48
then they won't show okay, we didn't meet this objective, we
00:28:50
didn't meet that objective, and I think you can learn a lot from
00:28:54
that.
00:28:54
And then you know that's the way that you continuously
00:28:57
improve.
00:28:58
So it's creating that culture within the organization.
00:29:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, and I think we both agree this.
00:29:03
This culture of experimentation is just critical, and that's
00:29:06
something I've been talking about.
00:29:07
I know you talk about it as well.
00:29:08
So you also talk about something that I think is really
00:29:11
important, that I talk a lot about in my upcoming book, which
00:29:14
is storytelling that to succeed online, you need to tell
00:29:17
personal stories, and one of the ways you talk about doing this,
00:29:21
which I thought really interesting, was creating a
00:29:24
brand ambassador program, like the WWF did before German
00:29:27
elections, or working with influencers, like UNDP did for
00:29:31
the Don't Choose Extinction campaign.
00:29:33
So I always think that the people around us can always tell
00:29:38
better stories about our organization than we can because
00:29:40
we're so deep into it.
00:29:41
Sometimes we don't see the obvious, and I'm assuming this
00:29:44
is why this reaching out to other people that have brand
00:29:47
affinity, that like, know and trust the organization, can
00:29:50
actually tell the better story of impact.
00:29:51
Has that been your experience?
00:29:53
I'd love to hear about these two specific campaigns that we
00:29:56
talked about.
00:29:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean and this is also, I think, an impact of
00:30:01
the pandemic in the fact that people are a lot more don't want
00:30:05
to see just the corporate side, they want to see the face and
00:30:08
the people behind the organization.
00:30:10
So it is an opportunity for the organizations that want to take
00:30:15
that step forward.
00:30:16
So, whether it's okay, maybe the CEO or C-suite of the
00:30:20
organization can they speak more on camera?
00:30:22
But then also, how do you involve your employees to really
00:30:27
speak on key issues that relate with what your organization is
00:30:31
doing?
00:30:31
And that's what the World Wildlife Foundation, for example
00:30:34
, and they were able to.
00:30:35
Then the communications team worked with them to build up
00:30:54
their presence on social media, to create content together with
00:30:57
them.
00:30:57
So then, after that, it allowed them to not just basically have
00:31:03
communications that was coming from the organization, but
00:31:06
communication from coming from experts that were speaking
00:31:09
directly with the politicians that were running on at the
00:31:14
German elections.
00:31:15
So it allowed them to really have, like you know, a personal
00:31:18
side to the campaign, as opposed to here, you know, we should
00:31:22
save the wildlife and this is why you know.
00:31:24
So it's something that they've, they've continued and I think
00:31:28
we all have as organizations, even companies, we all have
00:31:32
experts within our company or organization that we can tap
00:31:38
into and then so it's basically working with them to build that
00:31:41
up.
00:31:42
Dundp was another example where they worked with numerous.
00:31:47
Of course, they have the UN Ambassador Program that has a
00:31:52
lot of celebrities working with them already, but then they also
00:31:56
got specific influencers in specific countries that spoke
00:32:00
specific languages to really have something that was tailored
00:32:03
and really personalized to different national audiences.
00:32:07
So I think you have to think about that as well, so that it's
00:32:10
not just a top-down.
00:32:11
You know, in English and I think a lot of countries you
00:32:16
know they want to see something in their language.
00:32:18
They want to see something from someone that is coming, you
00:32:22
know, that is speaking to them directly.
00:32:24
So that's the strategy that they adopted as well.
00:32:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think all of this, as you know, I define
00:32:33
as influencer marketing.
00:32:33
I'm curious because in my upcoming book, I have a separate
00:32:35
chapter just on the power of brand ambassadors and I classify
00:32:38
them as different types.
00:32:40
So I believe you were talking about employee ambassadors, but
00:32:43
there's also expert ambassadors.
00:32:44
So the employee ambassadors for , like, a organization or for a
00:32:47
B2B will often be the experts internally, but then there are
00:32:50
those experts in the industry that are extremely influential
00:32:53
as well.
00:32:54
So were they using a combination of the two or were
00:32:56
they all just employee ambassadors?
00:32:59
Speaker 3: Well, as far as UNDP, they were using external
00:33:01
ambassadors, so these were not internal ambassadors there.
00:33:04
But what they did is they obviously worked with them very
00:33:07
closely to sort of brief them on the issues and making sure, as
00:33:11
you would with the influencers, to make sure that they're as
00:33:14
aligned as possible when they joined the campaign.
00:33:17
Speaker 1: But what about for WWF?
00:33:18
That was the one that I was curious on.
00:33:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, so WWF that was completely internal and then so
00:33:25
these were experts that were internally working with them and
00:33:28
that's sort of, as I said, something that they've continued
00:33:32
even after the election.
00:33:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, really fantastic advice.
00:33:35
I want to move on to another point that before we, before we
00:33:40
scheduled the interview, we had like a back and forth on what we
00:33:42
were going to talk about and you also talked about.
00:33:45
So, you know, going digital first, startup mentality,
00:33:49
experimentation, you know that's like this critical thing of
00:33:52
digital first marketing, regardless of organization, and
00:33:55
then succeeding online storytelling, but not
00:33:58
necessarily your executives telling stories, but more of
00:34:01
those ambassadors, experts, you know, internal, external, and
00:34:05
that is just such a powerful topic on its own that we could
00:34:09
go off on for another dedicated interview on.
00:34:11
But the third point was create a platform for your fans, and I
00:34:16
love this idea.
00:34:17
You talk about, or you will talk about, the Malala Fund, but I'm
00:34:21
teaching this class on personal branding and becoming someone
00:34:25
of influence or yielding influence and, at the end of the
00:34:27
day, creating your own community is the ultimate way to
00:34:31
really scale that influence, because you build a community,
00:34:35
the community members talk about you without you having to talk
00:34:38
about yourself, and it builds this very, very positive
00:34:40
flywheel.
00:34:41
So I love this idea about creating your own platform.
00:34:44
I mean, what did the Malala Fund, what did the Malala Fund
00:34:48
do with assembly and what are some takeaways that everybody
00:34:52
listening might be able to do for their own organization.
00:34:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think they're a great example of
00:34:57
an organization that wanted to give the mic to their audience
00:35:01
and they wanted to help.
00:35:03
Of course, if you know the Malala Fund, it was funded by
00:35:07
Malala Yousafzai.
00:35:08
She was shot by the Taliban for speaking out on the rights for
00:35:16
girls' education and then became well-known and from that,
00:35:21
founded this non-profit to help support the education of girls
00:35:26
and young women worldwide nonprofit to help support the
00:35:29
education of girls and young women worldwide.
00:35:31
And then from that she realized we have to tell stories about
00:35:36
what's happening internationally with young girls and how can we
00:35:38
help them to tell those stories , how can we amplify their
00:35:42
stories?
00:35:42
So they then created this.
00:35:46
So they then created this.
00:36:01
First it was just a newsletter called Assembly, where they
00:36:04
would reach out to young leaders and if you would like to write
00:36:06
a story, then please submit your story and we'll include it in
00:36:12
the next edition of Assembly.
00:36:14
And actually they were overwhelmed because so many
00:36:17
girls internationally wanted to tell their story, wanted to say
00:36:21
what was happening in their country, how they're dealing
00:36:24
with it and what are some of the solutions right how they're
00:36:27
dealing with it and what are some of the solutions right.
00:36:30
So it really became kind of a buzzing kind of platform that
00:36:32
allowed them to.
00:36:33
Now it's almost like a magazine, it's almost like they have a
00:36:37
media house, you know, within the nonprofit, and they're
00:36:42
having, you know, girls tell their story and it's really it's
00:36:46
kind of a win-win because on one hand, you know girls tell
00:36:48
their story and it's really it's kind of a win-win because, on
00:36:50
one hand, they're getting all this amazing content that helps
00:36:54
to support their activity and showcase the importance of
00:36:56
girls' education Absolutely.
00:36:56
And at the same time, you know, they're amplifying locally sort
00:37:00
of what's happening in all these countries and really
00:37:02
showcasing, you know, the efforts that are being done.
00:37:05
So it's really it's a very positive kind of win-win story.
00:37:08
And they even, you know, won the Webby Awards and a lot of
00:37:13
different awards.
00:37:13
So it's really converting.
00:37:15
You know, not just using email to speak to your audience, but
00:37:20
then asking your audience then to speak to you and then
00:37:22
co-collaboratively, kind of co-creating a lot of stuff
00:37:26
together.
00:37:27
Speaker 1: That would have been a great case study to feature in
00:37:29
my new book.
00:37:29
I have a dedicated chapter on user-generated content as well,
00:37:32
and I also love the power that a lot of people forget about
00:37:35
email to facilitate that communication, because it's not
00:37:38
defined by who's going to see the search results or are you
00:37:42
going to pop up in Mark Zuckerberg's newsfeed or not.
00:37:45
It's something you control and being able to have that
00:37:48
conversation to be able to source that content and it's not
00:37:51
content, it's stories, right, of people who share that passion
00:37:55
.
00:37:55
So these are great examples.
00:37:57
Anyone listening I will challenge you to try to
00:38:04
implement in your organization.
00:38:04
And one thing I wanted to talk about with the brand ambassador
00:38:06
study before is the storytelling of other people talking about
00:38:08
you, which obviously is also this user generated content
00:38:11
concept.
00:38:12
You know I did my own experiment where I have this free LinkedIn
00:38:14
ebook that is a lead magnet and I hired someone to create.
00:38:18
There are UGC content creators, right, consider them nano
00:38:21
influencers and you know her talking about my ebook.
00:38:24
She was able to, you know, to talk about it in a way that I
00:38:27
couldn't and had the video creation skills to do it in a
00:38:30
very engaging way for social media.
00:38:32
So two takeaways for anyone that's listening or watching.
00:38:35
Number one, if you've never done it and I found this person
00:38:38
on Fiverr.
00:38:38
In all honesty, she's based, she's being based out of London.
00:38:41
You know, do a search for UTC content creator unless you, you
00:38:45
know, you have customers that are creating the content for you
00:38:47
or other people that can, but I think it's a really, really
00:38:49
great experiment to see how other people would tell your
00:38:52
story.
00:38:52
And then the second one is I love that you know using email,
00:38:56
not as one way communication, but as two way communication,
00:39:00
and seeing what sort of stories that you can source from your,
00:39:04
your customers or your community .
00:39:05
But do you have a brand mission ?
00:39:08
Do you have a brand vision?
00:39:10
Do you have a culture that is aligned with something that
00:39:14
people are really passionate about, like those that subscribe
00:39:17
to the Malala Fund newsletter?
00:39:19
I think that is the challenge, and I would argue that every
00:39:21
for-profit company should have a passionate mission that they
00:39:25
align with.
00:39:26
That is along the lines of what a nonprofit has.
00:39:30
I think more and more with younger generations, that's
00:39:32
becoming critical.
00:39:33
So a lot of great takeaways here.
00:39:35
Nicholas, and obviously anyone that's interested in learning
00:39:38
more about this, definitely buy the book Engage with Impact.
00:39:41
It is available wherever fine books are sold online, offline.
00:39:45
You'll find my interview sprinkled in there as well.
00:39:48
Nicholas, are there any you know talking about the digital
00:39:50
first nonprofit?
00:39:51
I think we hit a lot of aspects of the funnel.
00:39:53
We hit the SEO, the content marketing, the social media, the
00:39:55
brand ambassador, the influencer marketing, the user
00:39:58
generated content.
00:39:58
We covered a lot in 30 minutes, my friend, but I'm curious are
00:40:01
there any other you know nuggets of wisdom that you'd like to
00:40:05
impart the audience with on the topic before we end this
00:40:08
interview, anything that we missed?
00:40:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that one of the things that and
00:40:13
this is something I see very often is that nonprofits and
00:40:18
international organizations will have a call to action, will
00:40:21
have something and then they don't have the follow through.
00:40:23
So I think that companies that do like direct marketing have
00:40:28
great expertise to basically have that funnel where that
00:40:32
really follows through and make sure that they're able to either
00:40:36
get that sale or get that subscriber or whatever it is
00:40:40
with the different strategies.
00:40:42
And I think that on one hand, I've seen we had a campaign with
00:40:47
the Global Partnership for Education.
00:40:48
We had amazing traffic going to our website for a campaign that
00:40:54
I managed.
00:40:55
But one of the things that where we fell short was the
00:41:00
participation rates.
00:41:01
We didn't have as much participation rate as we wanted
00:41:04
to.
00:41:05
And I just saw an interview with someone from another nonprofit
00:41:09
called Make my Money Matter, and they had I don't know if you
00:41:12
saw perhaps you saw a video that went viral with Olivia Colman
00:41:17
talking about the importance of your pension, where your pension
00:41:22
money goes, and the CEO said that we had a lot of difficulty.
00:41:28
We may have seen I think it was, you know, 15 million people
00:41:33
that saw the video but then only 2 people took action on that
00:41:37
issue.
00:41:38
So I think that is, for me, the main thing that I want to work
00:41:43
on is to try to help organizations when they, when
00:41:47
they have a campaign, to really meet those objectives and to
00:41:50
really use digital to really, you know, get more engagement
00:41:55
and get more people involved in there for their campaign or for
00:41:59
their cause, and I think that's a challenge.
00:42:02
I think people are very passive and used to sort of sitting
00:42:06
back and then so how do you get them to take action?
00:42:09
So I don't know if you would have any suggestions there.
00:42:13
Of course, you know, with thanks to your expertise, you
00:42:16
know what are, what are the key things that get people to take
00:42:19
action online.
00:42:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it's funny, this is a similar topic
00:42:24
that I had a conversation with my brother.
00:42:26
I bring up my brother, I have four older brothers, but one
00:42:28
brother is he's in the wine industry.
00:42:30
We had this conversation.
00:42:32
He is a winemaker here in Southern California, well, santa
00:42:35
Barbara County, and he is a member of a professional
00:42:38
association of winemakers of a specific variety of grapes so
00:42:42
nonprofit association.
00:42:43
But they want to evangelize this type of grape and they want
00:42:46
to start.
00:42:47
They've never done Facebook or Instagram ads and it's like
00:42:50
you're building asset because it takes time to develop
00:42:53
relationships with people and if you think about a pixel, it is
00:42:58
an asset.
00:42:59
So it's not just one ad campaign for one event and
00:43:02
you're over right.
00:43:03
You're going to begin the relationship.
00:43:06
Not everybody's going to convert and my sales background
00:43:10
tells me that it takes five to 20 touches whatever number you
00:43:13
want to use to convert people to action.
00:43:14
It is a long game and people do not get married the day after
00:43:20
they meet someone for the first time and I have to remind people
00:43:22
of that that you have to have that long-term approach but you
00:43:25
also have to be intelligent and strategically retouching those
00:43:28
people getting those touches.
00:43:30
Google also calls this a zero moment of truth.
00:43:32
I talk about it in my new book.
00:43:33
But I think to get people to action I think it's a
00:43:36
combination that Google definition is zero moment of
00:43:38
truth you need to have X number of hours of content viewed and X
00:43:42
number of impressions.
00:43:43
What have you?
00:43:44
But at some point there has to be a trigger and often in the
00:43:47
world of marketing we use exclusivity, time-based
00:43:52
discounts.
00:43:52
What I've seen in the nonprofit world is if you donate by June
00:43:57
30th, some corporate sponsor will match your donation, but
00:44:01
you have to do it by now to get that biggest impact.
00:44:03
I've seen that and I don't know how many nonprofits use that,
00:44:06
but I would tend to think that's really effective.
00:44:07
I think also the personal stories of the emotional
00:44:12
triggers, of we will send you updates of how your money is
00:44:16
being used right To give people a sense of ownership, or we will
00:44:20
.
00:44:20
You know the people that your donations are impacting.
00:44:24
You know you'll get a postcard from them regularly.
00:44:26
This happens a lot with like adoption, you know, or
00:44:28
children-related nonprofits.
00:44:29
So I think at the end of the day, it's an emotional trigger
00:44:32
where we are human beings and we are emotional.
00:44:34
And how do you trigger those emotions?
00:44:36
And storytelling is how you grab the attention A mission
00:44:43
that your organization has.
00:44:43
It has to be something that people are passionate about, and
00:44:45
then you need to give people an excuse to take that action.
00:44:46
Time limit, greater impact, some sort of personal benefits.
00:44:50
That's my.
00:44:51
I don't work.
00:44:52
I have worked with nonprofits in the past, but I think it's a
00:44:55
combination of all those things.
00:45:00
Speaker 3: Nicholas, I mean, what do you think?
00:45:01
Yeah, no, I would agree, particularly on the persistence
00:45:02
part.
00:45:02
So I think that a lot of people they'll do a campaign and it'll
00:45:05
be just, you know, a one shot.
00:45:06
But a lot of campaigns, you know.
00:45:08
I interviewed Patagonia, for example, and they had a campaign
00:45:13
that lasted for years and then eventually, you know, after, you
00:45:17
know, six years later, they were able to reach their
00:45:20
objective to help protect a river in Europe.
00:45:24
But it took like six years and a huge campaign with petition,
00:45:29
with social media influencers, but they continued, you know so.
00:45:33
Speaker 1: so I completely agree , I completely agree, and I want
00:45:37
to you know, in my personal branding class at UCLA Extension
00:45:39
, I use Patagonia as an example, because if you were to go to
00:45:42
their Twitter, I refuse to say X , sorry.
00:45:44
If you go to their Twitter profile, their bio is we're in
00:45:47
business to save our home planet , and that is one of the most
00:45:51
eloquent branding statements I've ever heard, which attracts
00:45:54
the right people, triggers emotion and I think it's a lot
00:45:57
easier for them to rally the troops.
00:45:58
But they've had that same bio for probably more than a decade.
00:46:01
I mean, that is their mission.
00:46:02
It doesn't change, and that is something that I challenge any
00:46:06
for-profit company to be able to say the same thing.
00:46:09
And I also bring up Simon Sinek what is your why?
00:46:12
And that's another classic thing that I think everybody
00:46:15
listening or watching should go through, especially if you're a
00:46:17
company Start with a why.
00:46:18
Why are you in business?
00:46:20
And from that exercise you're also going to get a lot of great
00:46:22
stories that you can use in your content.
00:46:24
So I want to get that.
00:46:38
We did have a question here from Andrew Antonucci.
00:46:39
Are there any major areas of concern that you have about
00:46:39
future changes to SEO, noting Google's current and constant
00:46:41
updates, social media algorithms and AI for nonprofits in
00:46:42
gaining traction, engagement results on platforms.
00:46:44
This is the million dollar question that you could have
00:46:45
asked us five years ago and just changed out some of the words
00:46:48
here and it's sort of the same thing, because we began talking
00:46:51
about how it's always changing and it changes very fast.
00:46:53
But, nicholas, let's start with you on this question.
00:46:56
What do you, you know, looking in the next 12 months and I'll
00:47:00
give my opinion as well and we're not fortune tellers and
00:47:02
nobody can predict the future but just curious as to how
00:47:04
you're advising with the generative AI search results in
00:47:08
Google.
00:47:08
Obviously, algorithms always changing.
00:47:10
Ai these are three, I think the AI and the, you know, gen AI
00:47:15
search results are two more important things.
00:47:17
Social media algorithms that's always the case, but curious as
00:47:19
to how you're advising organizations over the next 12
00:47:22
months vis-a-vis these things.
00:47:24
Speaker 3: I think organizations aren't against the use of AI,
00:47:28
but they are ring fencing it as far as making sure that that
00:47:32
content is fact-checked.
00:47:34
That content is then human-centered, so something
00:47:38
that is not completely AI-generated.
00:47:42
So I interviewed the United Nations Environment Program,
00:47:51
their digital lead, and they said we may use it as a support,
00:47:54
use AI as a support, but we always make sure that it's
00:47:56
triple-checked.
00:47:57
Ai as a support, but you know we always make sure that it's
00:48:00
triple checked.
00:48:00
So first, I think, first and foremost, you know good research
00:48:06
and new research is what is going to help you maintain that
00:48:08
visibility, even if you know Google's algorithm changes.
00:48:10
So it's making sure that you have new research, something new
00:48:14
to bring to the table.
00:48:15
That then is fact-checked as well.
00:48:18
And yeah, I mean I think you know, let's see how search
00:48:22
changes over the next year.
00:48:24
I think it'll be very interesting.
00:48:26
I think SEO is still relevant.
00:48:28
You know good content is still going to make its way to the top
00:48:32
.
00:48:32
How it does that, I think you know, may change.
00:48:35
Speaker 1: However, yeah, I think, and obviously I'm working
00:48:38
more on the for-profit side.
00:48:40
I mean, social media is what it is.
00:48:41
But obviously, getting back to the earlier point, if you're not
00:48:44
creating short form video, you really miss out on getting the
00:48:47
visibility and engagement that's required today and I do think
00:48:49
that that is not going to change right.
00:48:51
As far as AI, absolutely, I think that we're now realizing
00:48:56
it is not, it's not the major thing, it is a co-pilot, it is
00:49:01
AI assisted, right, if you're using Grammarly, if you're using
00:49:03
Spellcheck on Word or Gmail, that is AI assisted as well, and
00:49:06
I think it's an extension of that.
00:49:08
But obviously, ai and I think for nonprofits, ai does have
00:49:11
biases, right, in terms of the language models that it was
00:49:14
trained on, which is primarily, you know, white male, you know
00:49:19
from the Northern hemisphere or from you know the Western world.
00:49:22
So I think that's really critically important.
00:49:24
But you know, for short form content, it is a great way to
00:49:27
get you know from ideation, right, it's a great way to get
00:49:30
ideas.
00:49:30
I think, for search, you know the results are not in because
00:49:33
we know that Google is the ultimate tester of data and they
00:49:37
made this is their most, I believe, their most fundamental
00:49:39
change in the algorithm ever for them and I see them tweaking
00:49:43
things.
00:49:44
So at the end of the day, it comes down to user satisfaction
00:49:48
and they're taking the data and who knows what might happen.
00:49:50
We might see that some concepts where the gen AI search results
00:49:55
get more predominant than others.
00:49:56
I'd say that if you are creating content around very,
00:49:59
very simple questions, if the AI can answer it, then you're not
00:50:04
going to get any visibility.
00:50:05
But I think focusing on the deeper issues that are not
00:50:09
explainable in a paragraph talking about personal
00:50:12
experiences or the storytelling, the experiences of the
00:50:15
organization, those deeper things is what I'm recommending
00:50:19
my clients to spend more time on .
00:50:21
I do believe that, even with Gen AI search results, google is
00:50:24
saying that a lot of people are clicking through to the sources,
00:50:25
so you obviously want to come up as a source.
00:50:27
But I think from a macro perspective Nicholas and I talk
00:50:31
about this in my book that SEO is all about the discoverability
00:50:34
.
00:50:34
Where do we get discovered?
00:50:35
So in my funnel of digital relationships, the two primary
00:50:39
areas are search and social right.
00:50:40
But search is really interesting because now we have
00:50:43
a new generation that finds information that gets exposed on
00:50:46
TikTok right and then we have YouTube.
00:50:48
So I see, and I've seen some organizations already start the
00:50:52
shift of going from written content first to video content
00:50:56
first, and maybe there's going to be more AI search results in
00:51:00
Google.
00:51:01
But what about YouTube?
00:51:02
And if I can make video, I can maximize my visibility in social
00:51:05
media, where we know people spend a lot of time.
00:51:07
So that is one advice that I would give everyone listening is
00:51:11
to shift a little bit more resources in the video, whether
00:51:13
it's short form or YouTube or both.
00:51:15
I do think that that is where AI cannot compete.
00:51:18
It's the human, the human voice , yeah, and that for every
00:51:22
nonprofit, that is your advantage that you should be
00:51:24
taking advantage of and using.
00:51:27
So, nick, just to end that, the answer to that question
00:51:30
Nicholas, do you see a greater shift of video in the
00:51:33
organizations that you work with , or is that something you
00:51:35
recommend as well?
00:51:36
Speaker 3: Absolutely so.
00:51:37
There's definitely, you know, it's a key element in sort of
00:51:42
any work that I do now.
00:51:44
Video is becoming more and more important.
00:51:46
One of the issues that I just wanted to add to that, to what
00:51:50
you were saying, is the impact of AI that is having on
00:51:55
disinformation, and that is one of the concerns, I think.
00:51:59
So the more content that is out there that is AI generated,
00:52:03
that is false, misleading, can then, you know, create a lot of
00:52:09
confusion out there, and then, if it becomes something that
00:52:12
then makes it, you know, more difficult, whether it's, for
00:52:15
example, a very simple issue like climate change or other key
00:52:20
issues that are politicized.
00:52:22
I think I'm a little bit worried , and we're already seeing, and
00:52:26
during the upcoming EU election, a lot of fake articles that are
00:52:31
being posted, a lot of bots that are on social media
00:52:35
responding automatically to a lot of messages.
00:52:38
So it's reasonably concerning where it will go.
00:52:41
But, once again, the important thing is credibility and trust.
00:52:46
So if you build credibility and trust, then you will be able to
00:52:51
maintain yourself and your presence online, and so that,
00:52:56
for me, is key is working on that and making sure that all
00:53:01
the content that you have is credible and well-regarded.
00:53:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a lens that whoever's
00:53:08
in charge of your content has to look out before anything is
00:53:10
published to the world that does .
00:53:12
This help us build the credibility and trust.
00:53:14
I think it's also a reminder of the importance of email.
00:53:18
Right that you might not appear in the search results, but as
00:53:21
long as you've converted your fans, your community, into email
00:53:24
subscribers and you're offering them something of value and
00:53:27
going beyond that, like the Malala Fund did, that's a great
00:53:30
recipe for success.
00:53:31
So, Nicholas, we covered a lot of ground today.
00:53:33
Obviously, as I said, buy Engage with Impact excellent
00:53:38
book and I know that there are other experts that I have a lot
00:53:41
of respect for that also contributed to the book.
00:53:43
Nicholas, if people want to find out more about you and the
00:53:46
book, where should we send them?
00:53:48
Speaker 3: It's very simple.
00:53:48
It's engagewithimpactcom, and there you can either get the
00:53:53
book or also a free guide that gives you an overview of the
00:53:57
Agile framework.
00:53:58
So, basically, the framework that I've set for organizations
00:54:02
to really engage with impact online.
00:54:04
Speaker 1: Excellent.
00:54:05
Well, you heard that right there.
00:54:06
Engagewithimpactcom.
00:54:07
Nicholas is also obviously on LinkedIn.
00:54:09
We'll put the links to those in the show notes.
00:54:11
Nicholas, thank you so much for your time.
00:54:13
I know you had a launch party in Belgium that I couldn't make.
00:54:15
I'm going to be back in London in July, I don't know.
00:54:18
At some point I know that we're going to be able to meet up in
00:54:21
person.
00:54:21
I look forward to that, but in the meantime, keep doing the
00:54:23
excellent work you're doing and, yeah, I wish you the best of
00:54:26
luck and I hope that everyone listening today got a lot of
00:54:29
great takeaways and, more importantly, that you take
00:54:31
action.
00:54:31
Right, how do we get you to take action?
00:54:34
Because there's so much, there's so much potential for so
00:54:37
many organizations that they you know most organizations
00:54:40
really at the tip of the iceberg .
00:54:41
So just take one thing, one action point, one data point
00:54:46
from today's conversation and implement it and let Nicholas
00:54:48
and I know how it went.
00:54:49
So, nicholas, thank you again and, yeah, I look forward to
00:54:52
keeping in touch.
00:54:53
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
00:54:54
Thanks a lot, neil, my pleasure .
00:54:56
Speaker 1: All right, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much
00:54:57
as I did.
00:54:58
If you follow me on well, linkedin, instagram, tiktok
00:55:03
Facebook page, I am uploading videos.
00:55:05
Obviously, the live streams recordings are also on YouTube.
00:55:09
So if you want to see, you know our conversation in real video
00:55:16
life, go over to one of those channels and you'll be able to
00:55:18
find those videos.
00:55:19
And hey, I'm going to be doing a campaign soon for Digital
00:55:22
Thread.
00:55:22
So if you would like to get your hands on an early copy, but you
00:55:27
weren't part of the Kickstarter , you weren't part of the launch
00:55:30
team, I'm going to give you one more opportunity.
00:55:33
You know, if you're listening to this podcast, hopefully
00:55:35
you're a fan, hopefully you've subscribed, and if you haven't
00:55:38
written a review, I want to give you a chance to actually win a
00:55:41
free copy of Digital Threads.
00:55:43
All you need to do is put up a review on Apple Podcasts or your
00:55:48
favorite podcast player, send me a screenshot and I will send
00:55:51
you over a free electronic version of Digital Threads as a
00:55:55
way of saying thank you.
00:55:56
And when you send that to me, make sure you address it to Neil
00:56:01
N-E-A-L at neilschafer S-C-H-A-F-F-E-R dot com.
00:56:05
Well, that's it for another episode of the your Digital
00:56:07
Marketing Coach podcast.
00:56:08
This is your digital marketing coach, neil Schafer, signing off
00:56:11
.
00:56:13
Speaker 2: You've been listening to your Digital Marketing Coach
00:56:16
.
00:56:16
Questions, comments, requests, links go to
00:56:20
podcastneilschafercom.
00:56:22
Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes at
00:56:27
neilschafercom to tap into the 400 plus blog posts that Neil
00:56:32
has published to support your business.
00:56:34
While you're there, check out Neil's digital first group
00:56:38
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00:56:41
little helping hand.
00:56:42
See you next time on your Digital Marketing Coach.
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