If you have an interest in content marketing, you might know who Joe Pulizzi is and his absolute authority on the subject.
But just in case, Joe is considered the legitimate Godfather of Content Marketing because he is the:
- Founder of Content Marketing Institute
- Founder of Content Marketing World
- Author of several content marketing books, including the recently revised Epic Content Marketing
- He also recently founded the Creator Economy Expo
But Joe is not going to give you the content marketing advice that you already know. On the contrary, Joe is going to teach you some unconventional ways of thinking about content marketing.
Intrigued?
You should be!
GUEST LINKS
- Creator Economy Expo: https://nealschaffer.com/cex [affiliate]
- Epic Content Marketing on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3JJ96NE [affiliate]
- The Tilt: https://thetilt.com
Register for the Harnessing the Power of A.I. to Transform Your Small Business Marketing webinar on April 19 here: https://nealschaffer.com/tailwindai
Learn More:
- Join My Digital First Mastermind: https://nealschaffer.com/membership/
- Learn about My Fractional CMO Consulting Services: https://nealschaffer.com/cmo
- Download My Free Ebooks Here: https://nealschaffer.com/freebies/
- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- All My Podcast Show Notes: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
Hey, Neal Schaffer, your digital marketing coach here. We're all talking about AI. But how exactly can we leverage the power of AI to transform our small business marketing? Well, no one is teaching us how to do this. I saw an opportunity. And I said, You know what, I'm gonna get together with my friends over at tailwind who are developing AI tools as well. And we're going to put on a free webinar for my community. That's right. It's going to be a free masterclass on how to harness the power of AI to transform your small business marketing. We're going to cover topics such as why you should use AI to automate processes, how to find the best AI tools for your business, how to get started with AI and small business marketing, how to measure your success, and also give you tips and tricks for getting the most out of AI in your small business marketing. By the end of this webinar, you will have the skills and the knowledge to start using AI to take your small business marketing to the next level. If you're interested. This is going to be April 19. On a Wednesday at 10am. Pacific. I hope you'll join me go to Neal schaffer.com/tailwind ai that's ne l Sch. Ff er.com/taillon di t ai LWIND. A I look forward to serving you on that webinar Wednesday, April 19. Content marketing, are you doing the same thing every day, every week, every month, every quarter every year? It's time to take an unconventional approach to content marketing. And I can't think of anyone that is more qualified to give you that advice than the godfather of content marketing Joe Pulizzi himself who is my guest on this next episode of the digital marketing coach podcast digital social media content influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, blogging, tick talking LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketing. There's a lot to cover. Whether you're a marketing professional entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neal Schaffer is your digital digital marketing marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neal Schaffer. Hey, everybody, this is Neal Schaffer, your digital marketing coach and welcome to episode number 311. That was a great band for those that remember episode number 311 of the your digital marketing coach podcast. How the heck you doing today? It is a rainy day in Southern California. And well, there's talking about music One of my favorite songs. I'm only happy when it rains by garbage comes to mind. But I am just feeling fueled to not only present today's interview with Joe Pulizzi with you, but also give you a few updates from the Neal Schaffer home base. So what is going down with my business and with how I can help you well, two things Number one, I am partnering with tailwind to provide you all some education on how to start leveraging AI for your small business marketing. This is going to be a free masterclass it is going to be on April 19 outs 10am Pacific Time, one hour free masterclass. Go to Neal schaffer.com/tailwind ai TAILW ind AI, it is going to be a fantastic event. I am actually going to record a separate podcast episode about this experience because the feedback I got when I announced this to my email newsletter subscribers hinted you should be subscribed if you want first dibs was just overwhelming to the point where I had to redo the webinar plans, we had that much interest. So I hope you'll check out the landing page. If you're interested, you'll sign up. I'm a big fan of AI we need to use the tools that we have. And I think that ai 10 years from now for content creation is going to be similar to how the internet is for research. Who would have thought back back in the day when we used to go to libraries all the time. For those that remember, we used to look at microfilms we looked at books. That's where we did our research. Well, Internet came out. We had no idea what was happening. And today it's just mainstream. It's not cool to say Oh, I did research on the internet today. Like some people try to be cool and say Oh, I asked us to chat GBT it is not cool. It is mainstream, right? So if you're not there yet, I want to make sure to handhold you and get you there. Make sure you check out the webinar. Neal schaffer.com/tailwind Ay ay ay So, I've been investing bigger and bigger into YouTube, and specifically doing live stream recordings for these podcast interviews, and even my own solo podcast, so you can see me stare into a camera for half an hour and see what I look like. But regardless, I'm really excited about these. I will be publishing an episode next week that I'm actually going to livestream this week about how live streaming changes everything. It really just completely changed my entire focus my energy, and I believe the strategic results that I will get from everything that I'm doing. So with that in mind, youtube.com/neal Schaffer, make sure you subscribe, go to the Live tab, you can actually see all of the live streams that I have coming up these one point will become part of this podcast, but you will be able to be notified in advance. When that happens. I have some amazing live streams coming up. We have Jason McDonald, he's the author of a number of best selling Amazon books, social media worked, but Google Ads work but you've probably seen him. I have Melanie decile content fuel framework book, I have Viper, the man about tech, who is the social media director and tech influencer himself over at Vid IQ, where we're going to talk a lot about YouTube as well. So a lot of great stuff coming mix, you check out the webinar, Neal schaffer.com/tailwind AI, and make sure that you are going over to youtube.com/the oca for subscribing. And regardless, you should be by list, make sure you go to Neal schaffer.com. Subscribe to any of those widgets there just to be informed because I am only starting I really want to serve you in many ways that I can a podcast is one way audio, I serve you in text to blog. I serve you in video on YouTube more and more now. I provide you webinars I write books, I do what I can to serve you in a variety of ways. And if I can be of help above and beyond that, yes, I have a group coaching community, digital first mastermind, I have marketing consulting services under my fractional CMO, umbrella. But even if that is not necessary, I'm really proud and it's an honor to serve you. And without further ado, just to give you an idea of what we're going to talk about. Joe is a go bigger go home guy as you can imagine. Now what's really interesting is that this is actually the third time I am having Joe Pulizzi on this podcast. I'm really honored that he is making the time for all of us. I had him back on episode number 176 in September 2020, where we were talking about Corona marketing. That's right this Coronavirus that we all want to forget. Fast forward to February 24 2020 to about a year and a month ago, episode number 251. We talked about what is the link between the creative economy and content marketing. Joe, for those you that don't know, is the founder of Content Marketing World. He's also the founder of creative economy Expo. And the Creator economy Expo is coming up in May in Cleveland, Ohio. I was there last year when it was in Phoenix. I have not confirmed yet whether I'm going to go or not. I am hoping to go but regardless if I go or not, you should go I mean if you go and I end up going I mean if you go let me know right just DM me we'd love to meet up with you have a beer together or what have you but it is going to be a fantastic event already has. Some of the speakers have Jesse Cole who is the owner of the savannah bananas. They are taking the baseball world by storm. If you haven't read up on him, he's written a best selling book. Amazing guy. We have the CEO of Kajabi a hard con. We have Luria Petrucci, founder of Live Streaming pros, a fellow on Nippon Airways brand ambassador just an amazing person. We have Jay Baer, Roberto Blake, Andy Crestodina, Chris Ducker, Kate all, I mean, I could go on and on, but it is going to be an amazing event. And needless to say, I hope that you go if I can't go once again, if you end up going, let me know, go to Neal schaffer.com/c e x to get the best price on the tickets. So we have created economy Expo Joe, we also have the fact that he just came out with his newest version of Epic Content Marketing, completely refreshed, revised for web three for AI for all that. So it is the definitive primer for content marketing. And now Joe has the definitive event for the creative economy. But getting back to content marketing, which we're going to talk about today. Right? Joe is going to talk about things like why sometimes, buying an audience is better than building on how to produce less content with more impact, how to create new revenue pockets from your existing content mix and find a budget you never had before. It is an amazing interview as it always is with Joe. So well without further ado, let's jump right into my interview with Joe Pulizzi. About the five unconventional Content marketing approaches. You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neal Schaffer. Hey, Joe Pulizzi. Welcome to the your digital marketing coach podcast.
Joe Pulizzi:Deal. It's wonderful to be back again, with you.
Neal Schaffer:I want to say again, and again, it seems like this, this might be the third time and I know the last time we were in the midst of Coronavirus, it was all about Corona marketing. And, you know, normally I'd say, you know, please introduce yourself, but I think my guests, and everyone else in the marketing world knows who Joe pullets is. But as you republish, or revise your previous books, now we have the relaunch of Epic Content Marketing, you've made the shift from content marketing, fictional author, then we had Corona marketing, I don't think it was a major shift, and we just sort of the right thing to do at the right time, and then create our economy. And last time when we talked, you were big on this content entrepreneur, keyword, which I still think is a great keyword. But I think crater economy has sort of leapfrog that and therefore the crater economy Expo. So maybe let's start with just explaining this dichotomy you have with Epic Content Marketing, and then you know, all things crater economy, the tilt crater economy X Factor,
Joe Pulizzi:you know, I mean, it's funny with I mean, as you know, I've been in content marketing for 20 years, and I felt I was out of it, but they just keep pulling me back, pulling me back in, it was time to do a new version of Epic Content Marketing. The book was 10 years old, and Bryan Piper, he basically said, Joe, when are you going to do a new version, I said, I'm not going to do a new version, because I'm into this whole creator, economy side. And then he convinced me to do so. And I started to get so many people just saying, Hey, Joe, you know, the book is epic. Content. Marketing is great, the book is great. But you know, it's a little bit dated. And it was and it sort of gave me sick stomach, if you will, Neil, because it was like, I don't want people to buy this book that was really created in 2012 2013. And a decade is like 100 years of marketing. So Brian, and I put the whole thing together, there's the strategic framework for how to build an audience using a content marketing framework is still there. But we've got you know, AI and machine learning and web three and Creator Academy, and all the new tools. So we put that back into Epic Content Marketing is just launched last week. My heart and soul right now to your point is in the Creator economy. And if you look at content creators, what I call content entrepreneurs, content creators that are serious about building this content, first business, it's the fastest growing business in the world right now, nobody can even put a number to it. I've seen some that say 20 million, some say 50 million, some say 300 million, nobody knows it's a business, you can start with your smartphone. And we've got some new research at the tilt. The tilt is my company that focuses on the crater economy, it's a newsletter, we're starting to get this stuff in this is, hey, 18 months, and you can build a sustainable audience. And if you get to, you know, three plus years, you can get 85,000 plus on average in revenue. And they're building like really amazing, diverse little media businesses. And I just love the fact that there's this whole new group of entrepreneurs that are out there doing their thing. So it's almost the same thing. We're still talking about content marketing, but one is for marketers and large enterprise, very complex content strategies. And the other one is for an entrepreneur that's just trying to make a living, wants to be independent, do their own thing and has an expertise in something. So now I'm, I'm sort of playing left field and right field, if you will.
Neal Schaffer:And I guess with Epic Content Marketing, you're now bringing these two worlds together. And they
Joe Pulizzi:are together. And I think a lot of people didn't think about that. But especially you know, we were talking a little bit before, but just unconventional ways to look at content marketing. And one of them is is a lot of companies out there. They're saying, it's very difficult to build an audience. And it is, and it can't just be a campaign, and you have to commit to it for a long period of time. And they're saying, Oh, look at all these creators out there. They're building audiences. They've already figured out the model in our particular industry, and they're going out and buying them. So you're seeing content marketers, actually one of the areas that they have to understand and be good at that they never thought of before it was mergers and acquisitions. They're actually going out and acquiring and I prompt, Neil, probably over the last year, 15 months, I've gotten more emails and calls from people just saying, Joe, how do we do this? They're a marketer. And they're actually saying, hey, we want to buy a blog, we want to buy a podcast, we want to buy a YouTube channel, these things were never discussed five years ago. Now they're all the rage. Because if you're a smart marketer, and you want to build an audience, and you know that there's one already out there, it might make better sense to move some money and say, Look, we're going to spend five or six figures, sometimes seven figures on a creators business, and then they've cut all that process off for building a loyal, trusted audience and can get right to selling through that engine. Instead of as you know, all it takes to put into a website and a newsletter or blog or podcast or whatever you're doing.
Neal Schaffer:And it really taps into You know, when I wrote the age of influence, we didn't have the term creative economy, but a lot of those trends, right? That people just have a way of building an audience and trust and relationships, that it's very, very hard for corporate or corporation to do. Right. So getting back to your point, I'm thinking of Brian Dean and Backlinko being bought out by sem rush. It's just a great example. And it makes a lot of sense that, you know, why try to reinvent the wheel when you can take it over immediately, just immediate ROI and into that trusted audience. And I think, you know, it's funny, the creative economy, we tend to think about, like, you know, tick tock and YouTube, but it's really any space even, we could say HubSpot Podcast Network, is sort of buying out, you know, in one way or another, these other podcasts so that they can be influenced by the HubSpot brand.
Joe Pulizzi:It's interesting. I mean, HubSpot is a great example of people that get that they've got a whole division. And that's what they do. They have a media network, and part of that media network is going out and buying content businesses, and they did so with the hustle recently, and you've mentioned the Podcast Network. And they're doing that. So this is just smart business. And what's amazing to me, Neil, is that when you talk to a lot of these marketers, they don't even think it's a thing. I mean, I remember this is back, I'll go this will go back a decade, we were talking to one of the largest consumer product goods companies in the world. I remember Robert Rose, and I had Robert Rose as my co host on this old marketing. We were meeting with this organization in Singapore. And we went and talked about, they talked about all the goals, and they wanted to build these audiences. And they wanted to launch all these things. And we said, look, we know the categories you want to go into we there's some really amazing creators, building websites and blogs and newsletters and podcasts already. You have the cash, why don't you just buy them? And the CMO look like I had two heads. They're like, what, like, is that a thing? Is that something you do? And so I knew we were very early when it came to that. And so now a decade later, we're finally at the point where marketers Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're doing all the hard work. Let's bring them into the fold. And then, you know, HubSpot goes and spends a lot of money on the hustle. But if you look at the amount of money they spent, it's like, I don't know, rumor is they spend $27 million, or something on the hustle. That's like 3% of their annual marketing budget. Wow. It's, so when you look at it that way, you're like, Oh, my God, 1.5 million subscribers, millions of people going to that website, every day, every month, every month, whatever it is, Oh, can we just shortcut that? And by that, and then figure out how we keep that trust intact, and they figure out a way to do it?
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, I think it's like, you know, we've seen the rise of user generated content, we've seen the rise of influencer marketing, just for the content that creators can create, right? You know, whether the amplify or not is, is another story. But just leveraging that content can lead to incredible marketing ROI across all these different channels, already loads of data about that. So I guess, it's about taking it one step further and going bigger, in saying we don't want you for a piece of content, we don't want to and I know that influencers content creators are also sometimes getting hired, I think Disney recently announced they are hiring some content creators for their own modern game. But it's really about investing in these evergreen content channels that the content creator owns, which would primarily be blog and podcast. I'm curious if that model extends to a YouTube perhaps, but to a social media where they are not in 100%, control of their channel, have you seen buyouts before those mediums as well,
Joe Pulizzi:as I saw one two weeks ago, Matthew Patrick MatPat, runs game theory and food theory networks, these are multi millions of subscribers on both of these channels, they've created some amazing brands with that. And they sold for a lot of money. It was not made public, but I what I know, is a lot of money that they were able. And so it is a little bit of a different animal, because you're right, if you do something on YouTube, or something on Tik Tok, or Instagram or whatever, that's as we call rented land. And we don't have control over the brand, let's say as much as we do other places. But if you're smart about it, you've got those subscribers on YouTube, somebody wants access to that channel. And what was really good about what Matthew Patrick and his team did, they put together have really good robust email lists associated with that they've got amazing websites, they've got content, they're not just on YouTube. Now that's their home. That's where they built their fortune, if you will. But there's a lot of things going on there. And that's what we recommend. And we talk about that in Epic Content Marketing as well. It's like it's no problem. You can build your house on rented land you can build on social media, maybe that's the place you should start. But you always have to have back in your mind, how do we move up the subscriber hierarchy? How do we move from an Instagram fan and move them into an addressable audience and email audience a membership of some kind, so that if Instagram kicks me off the platform, or they change the rules, or like Google Plus, as you remember, went out of business. You protect yourself. That's just smart business. And of course, I think we're we're getting to the point where everybody realizes that but yeah, we're seeing more and more of those deals. done a lot more than email newsletters, like email newsletters is where everybody goes, because the Creator has most of the control. They have a lot of assets they can sell. Second would be podcast. And now you're starting to see things with Yeah. Can you buy a tic tock channel? Can you buy YouTube channel? Yes, you absolutely can. You have to be it's a little bit different than working model. But But I would if I'm making my hit list, and I always have one with me as well. Neil is like, who am I looking to purchase? Is it a blog? Is it a website? Is it an old domain? Is it a newsletter? Is it a webinar series? Is it an event, you know, all those things can be purchased. And there's just different dynamics associated with it.
Neal Schaffer:What's really interesting with that is, when I talk about influencer marketing, I'd say one of the end goals of most content creators is to have their own product. But now we almost have this.com, I can sell out, I can be bought out, which might be even better for some people. And that's something that's really come about with this greater economy. And with the strategies that you've been talking about. I don't think really, I mean, it gets it's been around for more than a decade, there has always been websites you can go to, like Flippa, to buy other websites. Sure. I know, there's telegram channels where you can buy various Instagram accounts don't know if they're full of bots or not. But that's a whole other story. But, but that's really interesting.
Joe Pulizzi:The difference is, is those were all financial deals, right? I mean, I'm very familiar with empire builders, or flipper or whatever, and you put your website on, and you might sell it for $10,000, or a million dollars, or whatever the case is. And those people buying that site generally want to say, Okay, I'm gonna buy this, I'm going to do certain things to get traffic to that site. And then I can flip that site, or sell it for a higher multiple, or whatever the case is, what you're seeing right now is the move from financial buyers to strategic buyers, you're seeing a company that would have, let's say, sponsored that website in the past, or sponsor that newsletter in the past, say, Oh, well, they've done the hard work of building that audience, let's just instead of doing a six figure sponsorship deal, we'll just spend five times that and buy the whole thing. And that's something that is completely new that I love to see. And that's the idea of like for an event. Let's say that you were selling an event, and which I sold as you know, I had an event Content Marketing World we sold in 2016. At the time, the majority of people looking to buy that event, were financial buyers looking to then put it in their portfolio. And these were mostly event companies. Well, today, if I'm launching an event I'm looking at, oh, me, it's probably my sponsors are the ones that have the money that they're already sponsor, they're already they already have a product to sell. And they're looking for a really good audience to sell that product to and boom, we're a thought leader. We're a trusted expert. And we can drive revenue this way, that way, or the other way.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, it's almost like an extension of, you know, I was at Vid Summit stream yard was a big sponsor there. And most of the big YouTubers were using stream yard, I'm using stream yard as well. So for them to go to creator economy Expo, and not just sponsor, but say, we want this all right, we want to, this is our ticket. It makes a lot of sense. And it really Joe, you know, when I talk to a lot of my fractional cmo customers, they tend to be startup small businesses. A lot of I think they represent a lot of businesses and marketers that don't see content as an asset, right. And I think this really speaks into the assets, that content becomes I just think about the content marketing. Yes, you added a bunch of new knowledge, but you had a base to start with. So it was it was you know, republishing just like republishing old blog posts, revising them, refreshing them, and revising them with a new date stamp and you know, getting those old backlinks and immediately moving up the search engine rankings. It's this constant asset. What do you think? I mean, maybe I'm wrong. And you were the one who taught me at Adobe summit way back. And I still use this quote today, that 90% of company created content is focused on the company, not the audience, right? And that's what we need to change. But this content is asset. Where do you think we are? What do you think prevents marketers and businesses as seen it that way?
Joe Pulizzi:Most enterprises have been built on at the advertising interruption model. And as much as we want to say, we're in the social media era. And we're thinking about our customers pain points, and we want to build an audience, they're not set up to do that. And I don't know how long it's gonna take deal. But it's still a very long process to get that done. So what happens is, and then you have turnover in a company. And you see this all the time. So let's say that you look in any enterprise, and the average stay for Chief Marketing Officer is, as we know, about two years, 24 months, what you have, you have a whole strategic plan, you're moving forward, and then maybe an 18 and 24, once you got a whole new one. And we see that in a marketing campaign. And that's what most content becomes an immediate mid size, larger enterprise is it's a campaign, and you cannot build an asset and a campaign, what you're trying to do is interrupt as much as you can over a short period of time. You want to extract the value while you can and then you go on to the next thing. And if you say, and you've heard it a million times, right? Somebody said, I'm working on this content marketing campaign. And I said, I don't know what that is. Yeah, content marketing campaign is not a thing.
Neal Schaffer:I was about to record a new podcast episode and because I'm going to be on a webinar with other CMOS put on by an SEO tool, and it's going to be in a few weeks. And one of them they showed me the questions one of the questions is, you know, what is one of your favorite, you know, marketing campaigns that you did recently. And I'm gonna say I don't believe in campaigns, you're exactly what you have launches. And then you basically have data driven experiments. That's right.
Joe Pulizzi:And what works and you keep going, and you and that's right. And then if you do a content marketing program, if you have a long term strategy, you're always changing things, you have a hypothesis, it may or may not work, you're getting data, you're, you're, you're saying, Okay, we're gonna change this, alter this, whatever, but you never stop. A campaign, like as a political campaign, thankfully, always stops, right? We're like, we're done with that. We want that political campaign to go away. I don't care what side you're on. But with a marketing campaign, you're saying, Okay, we're going to try a short blitz of something we don't, we really only care about product sales. At this point, we're not necessarily trying to build a long term relationship with our customers. If you're saying, I'm into content marketing, you're automatically audience first, we're going to build this trusted relationship with an audience, we're going to send them ongoing information, so that when they are ready, and we have something to sell, they will buy from us. And if you do that really well, you can pretty much sell whatever you want. But it does take a long time, it takes six months, nine months, 12 months, 18 months, sometimes three years, especially in b2b, you have a very long buyer cycle. That's where and that's where content marketing is home, actually came from it was loyalty magazines, it was a Walmart magazine was a Lego magazine, it was a Red Bull magazine, those all started as loyalty driven efforts to say, hey, we would like you to just keep buying from us forever. John Deere is the furrow magazine was in 1895, or whatever year that was still going on today in digital form. So that's where it comes from. And so if anybody listening to this wants to say, I want to get involved in content marketing, I probably would say your first instinct should look at a marketing goal of loyalty retention, or how do you generate more yield from a current customer, because that's the easiest place to start.
Neal Schaffer:I'm just thinking back to the Sears catalog, which we don't have the data. But that was probably one of the most widely circulated, I mean, maybe second to the Bible, I don't know,
Joe Pulizzi:everything. And Sears and Sears had a whole slew of radio, and I'm serious Radio Network. I mean, so they were, they were the largest media company of the world dive that nobody even knew was a media company. So we almost have to change. There's meat. If you look today at the marketing content marketing model, if you will, it is the same for marketing enterprise as it is for media company. It's just different products are sold. If your New York Times versus Cisco Systems, you're trying to do the same thing. You're just generating revenue in different ways. It's Cisco, I'm trying to sell routers in New York Times, I'm selling sponsorship and subscriptions. But you're trying to build first a loyal audience in order to do both.
Neal Schaffer:So one of these when we were discussing beforehand about these unconventional content, marketing tactics, we've already dived into this. Well, instead of build, why not buy one, but you also said this can be done on a tight budget. So I'm really curious as to how we can buy an audience in a tight budget, what are your thoughts?
Joe Pulizzi:Yeah, I mean, if, especially for an organization that doesn't necessarily have content marketing in its blood, doing a pilot program makes a lot of sense. Now you know, that you want this thing to go on. But if you sell it like an experiment, like you said, sometimes people say, hey, look, I don't need $10,000.15 $1,000, new, whatever it is, and we're going to launch this thing you want it to go on and on. But it's relatively inexpensive to launch a podcast, it's relatively inexpensive to launch a newsletter, what does take the most time is figuring out the right strategy. But you can launch all these things and see how it goes. And that's what I would recommend is that somebody just asked me the question is, okay, Epic Content Marketing? Joe, how do I integrate this into my entire marketing organization? I say Don't, don't, you're gonna get fired. I mean, it's the first thing is like that is too hard to do, you're going to integrate it with PR and comms and sales. And traditional marketing is like, no, what you want to do is build this thing over here, show that it actually is working, build some kind of audience or are set some kind of a goal, hey, we're trying to see this behavior change in our current audience, or we're trying to show that people that read this email newsletter, buy more than people that don't whatever the goal might be, and then you go take it to the people with a budget and say, Look what we're doing, and then you get more budget. So it does, I would actually recommend, that's the way to go instead of say, Oh, we're gonna do I mean, I was the one in 20 years ago, selling multimillion dollar content programs, I did it. And now looking back on it, I probably should have just said, Hey, let's do this $20,000 Experiment thing and see how it goes, knowing that I want to sell more, but let's make sure it works First, we'll use that in data and then we'll move on to the next thing.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, I suppose it's like any other thing in marketing don't just go all in all at once get get the data begin with that pilot program. The great thing is, I suppose that any content creator that's looking to sell out, we'd be more than happy to work on a you know, as usual on a smaller program to help you get the data and they can show the value that they have as well. So it makes it makes sense for both sides actually.
Joe Pulizzi:absolutely does. Yeah, I mean That's the thing we're seeing just from the bigger enterprises. Look at Arrow, electronics, big b2b company, they bought 52 different content brands, they kept all those people on staff. Like they didn't just say, Oh, we're buying the assets. And everybody goes, no, most of those people come along with it, maybe one of the two of the founders of those brands go away, and they get the good payoff, but a lot of them end up staying, they just don't want to run a business anymore. They just like, I would just rather give it to somebody else. And I just want to I want to still create, but I don't want to handle all the other obligations associated with it.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, and I used to work in the semiconductor industry. And arrow was actually one of our customers that distributor semiconductors. And I can tell you, that is an industry where there are not a lot of content creators, right, our first website for our company, it was basically basically as PDFs of our products. I mean, it wasn't like a true website. So So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I want to shift gears a little bit. One of these other unconventional content marketing tactics that we talked about beforehand, was how to produce less content with more impact and targeting, social sharing. I'm just curious. I've also talked about this, our friends at Spark Toro, they call it zero click Content, I call it authentically social content, really leaning into the platform, try not to get people to leave the platform and offering value there. So at the end of the day, they will even seek you out. But I'm just curious. With that background, we see, you know, the growth of LinkedIn carousel posts of Twitter threads, obviously short form video, not linkbase leading people off, I'm assuming this is sort of tied into that. But I'd be really curious as to what your advice there today is not producing less content, but getting more impact on social. So
Joe Pulizzi:there's two things there. First of all, let's just talk about, I want to talk about the social part. But the first part is, if you just look at, the less is more thing. And I used to do this all the time, I would go in to a consulting engagement, I would do a cursory content audit. And generally on average, you've got enterprises that are distributing creating content and 13 to 16 different channels. And basically, it's mediocre at best. They're just throwing stuff at the wall hoping something happens. And they expect me it's like, oh, content marketing guy, you're coming in, make us a recommendation, what should we do? And I said, it's not what you should do. It's what you should stop doing. And I would say, you should cut half of these things. And get rid of them move those resources over where you can be exceptional at one or two things. So don't do maybe you kill the research project, maybe the webinar things not working, maybe the events not working, maybe the podcasts not working, I don't know, whatever is not working, and you're just expending resources. And you could say, but maybe you can have the number one email newsletter in your industry and be indispensable to your audience. Great. So that's the one thing I would say. And there's a big movement toward that about killing all the things and focusing on being great at one thing to your second point about social and I've been in and you probably already know, this I've been into LinkedIn is sort of my platform for the last six months, I've been all in every day, I post something. And I've learned a couple things. And this is for everyone, you have to first of all, you have to show up every day. So whatever your frequency and consistency is, you want to make sure you do that when you do so. You're interesting. You're like Norm Peterson and cheers, right? You show up every day at the same time. And when you do, you're interesting. So you want to do those two things. And then maybe the most important thing, and this is where you you wrote the book on this and I learned this from you is you have to create your influence or hitlist, like where's your audience hanging out, and aunts in this particular case on LinkedIn. And you want to make sure that you comment on their posts all that and it does a couple things. One is your current audience will see that you commented on somebody else's. So you're you're basically reinforcing that fact. But the audience from that influencer is also seeing your posts. And hopefully, it's something riveting or interesting. And you get people to like that. And then they come over and become your audience, basically stealing audience. This is a six 912 Month 18 month initiative. If you do it, well. You can have a rolling list of influencers as you do this. But if you want this to work, and you want to build an audience, and like you know my numbers, I've gotten a thing over 250,000 followers on LinkedIn, and we've got an A just launched the newsletter on that platform. And we get 30,000 Really, really quickly by doing some of these things, but investing in the platform now, I've almost got up off of Twitter entirely. I've said I can't do Instagram, I can't do Facebook. I said what can I do? Well, I said we can do LinkedIn, well, I can't do all these other things. So that's where I would just say to any size company or an individual, pick your spots. Where can you put your time in? And if you're like Justin Walsh, or Jay Clawson, you can do Twitter and LinkedIn both really, really well then God bless you. Good for you. I know with my schedule and what I was willing to commit to, I could only do one really well. And I just chose LinkedIn. And that really works. So it's the combination of delivering amazing content, but activating that those influencers so that your audience sees you in multiple places, but that you're actually moving audience over to the thing that you're doing as well.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, Joe, I think it was that same Presentation Adobe summit that was the first time I saw you speak. That's why that's a big impact. But you also said you don't need to be on all these platforms just pick one and do it really well. So I think you're almost going back to that original advice, right. But doing social Well, today is very different than it was five years ago, the LinkedIn culture has changed. It's really turned into this engaging network that when people figure it out, it can be really powerful.
Joe Pulizzi:This conversations are happening. I mean, it really is amazing. Like, that's why I love LinkedIn, and Twitter to an extent I've seen it happening, but you're seeing real conversations happen. And we lost that for a while. Yeah. So God bless Microsoft in their algorithm over their LinkedIn, don't screw it up.
Neal Schaffer:Less is more, I'm just thinking, it's I went from my own website. And this is part of this presentation that I'm building. But I went from 1600 blog posts to 400. Because there was just too much I didn't need it, it was it was out of date, I couldn't maintain it, I want the content that's really going to be evergreen, if it's not evergreen, it shouldn't be on in and through going up to the you know, creating 100 new strategic posts, or maybe 150, I have doubled the traffic compared to when I had more than, you know, 3x more posts. So it's definitely not about the quantity. And I did this on Twitter recently, you know, I'm not really big into Twitter threads, but I know they're a thing. So I get one Twitter thread. And I noticed that I got, you know, the same number of impressions that I would have gotten over maybe 10 tweets. And the interesting thing is after the Twitter thread, the engagement you get from there, just like with LinkedIn, it like you know, it carried all the other boats. So after that I was getting an increased number of impressions for for a little while for additional tweets. So it's this Less is more, I couldn't agree more. I'm not pulling the plug on Pinterest yet. But every month and we Twitter as well, with Elon Musk every month, I'm looking at my GA data, right, I'm looking at, you know, traffic, the quality of the traffic conversions. And there may come a time where it's like, you know what, it just, it's not worth it anymore. But that when something is not worth it. You know, one of my mentors in the corporate world before social media was like, a strategy is just about even more deciding what not to do, and then what to do to your point. So it's like no time you free up for doing that you can shift elsewhere and make more of that, you know, that other platform.
Joe Pulizzi:And that's the thing, the wonderful thing is, and I know a lot of people that are killing it on Pinterest, so it's not the platform, it's Twitter can work for you, Facebook can work for you. I know a lot of people doing great with Facebook groups, and video. God bless them. That's wonderful. Instagram, same thing this is I have nothing against any of these platforms. But I have something Something is wrong with the fact that we feel we felt we had to be everywhere you don't. It's okay. It's okay to use all platforms, except one is just listening posts. Just figuring out what what your customers are talking about. You have something there, that's great, maybe corporate announcements, whatever, just use it for that. But you say hey, the place that I'm going to be a thought leader that we're going to build audience is this, whatever it is, it's Pinterest, it's LinkedIn, it's Tic Toc, it's whatever, that's fine. Just be great at the one and if you can't be great. At the two or three, you know, you've got a problem. So let's kill some let's change your strategy. Say no to those things. So that you can say a big yes to one of them.
Neal Schaffer:And I think it brings up this other notion of emotion, like be emotionally passionate about the content you create. But you don't need to be emotional about the social networks, right? And once you create it, it's okay to revise it. It's okay to use an AI tool to generate a better YouTube title than you could have. It's okay, right? It's, you don't have to get emotional about well, I don't want to use it. Well, if it gives you more and better ideas, why not? And if you're not gonna use it, you're competitive as well. So we don't want to go on the, you know, we can No, no, hey,
Joe Pulizzi:you know what, I've been through this when I started in print publishing. I mean, we were moving to Photoshop and Illustrator, and Quark Express and all these things. And there were a lot of designers and artists and people that put print publications together that said, that's not right, we shouldn't let technology stay. Well, we found out that while we could be so much more efficient, we could focus on so many things that made our customers lives better get them better jobs, or whatever, in some way. So we use that technology, it's the same thing. AI is a tool. If it can help you create better stories and make an impact on your audience, then you do it. And if it doesn't, then don't. So that's how we're going to be it is there going to be a lot of AI content out there in many different forms. There already is. Yeah, there already is. And there has been for five, I've been getting my fantasy sports updates in automated content for the last five years. Automated Insights has been sent to that to me, this is not new. So anyways, don't freak out about it. Just use what you can experiment. Absolutely. We're seeing all AI tools, new ones come out every day, please experiment, use what you can and forget the rest.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, and I think that the Photoshop and all that is really interesting, because then you add Canva, which makes graphic design accessible to everybody. In the same way that AI makes creating a, you know, a catchy headline accessible to anyone. Obviously, you need to understand your audience, you need to understand what's going to make it work for them or not. So AI is not the solution, right? Just like Canva you can create something on Canva and it could totally bomb because it looks like every other post from camera that everyone else is publishing so It's gonna be interesting, but it is a tool and it does make it more accessible for sure. For a hell
Joe Pulizzi:of a lot more could I send out? Yeah, so I've got so my email newsletter audience of 30,000. Could could I send that individually through my Gmail? Theoretically, yes, nobody would do that. It's very tough. Those email marketing services, they provide a lot of things and whitelisting and send them all out and making sure I stay out of trouble and most, so I will use that technology, again, just a tool to make us more efficient and make sense to use it. So yeah, I think people are getting all like, Oh, my God, human and technology. Whatever, I, this is a short term thing where we're having this because this is sort of new, this feels new, even though it's been around for a long time.
Neal Schaffer:You know, what do we do with our horses? I mean, we can go back in history. But anyway, I'll stop there. That's getting. We do have a question from the audience. Brian Ustad, a co author of Epic Content Marketing, love that you're on this livestream thing? I'd love to hear about your attention to monitoring the data. Neil, thanks for that question. And I think you'd agree, Joe, that it really comes down to, you know, data driven marketing, I take it to an extreme. I mean, I calculate over the last 12 months, for instance, I have various affiliate marketing partners, and I talked about how much revenue they're pulling in, right. And I will adjust, you know, if I mentioned them in a post, where I mentioned them in a post, if I put them in a very prime position. If I share their content on my social media channels, or email newsletter, it's revenue, it's data driven by the revenue, I go back into my blog posts. And I recently retired about 15 different blog posts from the 600. So went back down to 585. But they weren't delivering, right. So why they're not delivering traffic. And these were published two years ago. So I give them a year. It's a baby, I'm gonna give you a year to see how you grow. But at some point is is it just a topic that nobody's interested in anymore? Because if you look at keyword demand tools, I mean, it changes over time. Now tic TOCs, huge, and I've leaned more into creating content about tic toc. But if it's something like a Google Plus content, that there's no more demand for, it doesn't make sense to still have that content. And the data is going to lead you to that. If it's like, okay, there's still demand for this content. Somehow the content just did not hit search intent, then it's time to republish it, right? So data, you know, every month I go through my social network data, I look at what content is performing well, what's not, I leaned into what's performing more, and the whole Twitter, Pinterest, you know, every social network that you manage as a content creator, or as a business requires investment, whether it's podcasts or videos, or, you know, you're showing up on LinkedIn or Twitter, what have you. With Pinterest, it requires image creation, right? Specific new image creation every month. And fresh pins is really what what feeds Pinterest, so it requires me to look at the data is like, is this investment worth it? Right? And like I said, it's Google Analytics, right? It's looking at, you know, the traffic, or the pins, or the old pins or other new pins, driving in traffic, I look at my Pinterest analytics, and I will replicate the Pinterest design of those pins that are doing the best for my new pins for the month. And then I'm looking at, you know, the traffic, the quality, time on sites huge. And I compare it amongst the networks, like, you know, LinkedIn versus Twitter versus Facebook, versus Pinterest. And then obviously, conversions for me the conversion is, you know, contact form or a lead magnet form. It's really simple to do. And it's just a matter I think all this show is process, you got to have a process, I recently started using clickup. And you know, productivity tools are not the answer. But it forces you to think about what is the process, right? And it forces you to say, okay, every month, I'm going to do this, and this is the process, and I'm not going to forget to do it. And I'm not going to forget what the process was. So if you don't have processes for all these things, in anything, content marketing, I think you can agree, and you don't need to be an enterprise or have an enterprise tool to be able to do this even the smallest a content creator or you know, business can do this. Now, that
Joe Pulizzi:was a great question. So Brian Piper has that question by co author, I got that marketing. So he's got a whole section on content optimization. But what comes to mind with this whole thing was, I used to work with one of the largest b2b companies in the world, and they were updating their entire website, like, Oh, my God, we've got 1000s of pieces of content, how are we going to do this? And they actually created Neil, a process for updating every piece of content. And I said, we had the team that said, look at why don't we look at the content that's actually being viewed, maybe the, there's 1000s of pieces of content here that you should just get rid of, because nobody cares. And nobody's clicking on nobody's doing anything with it. What we found out that about 50% of the content hadn't been viewed in a year. We said, get rid of it. We don't need it anymore. So I think Brian, who asked the question, you would agree that you focus on the data that makes sense for your business and what your goals are, and then you go look at those things. And you can get data on everything, but focus on okay, what's my goal? What am I trying to achieve? Let's figure out what those pieces of data are. We can get those from analytics or we can get those from surveys or wherever we need to get that information and then make the proper decisions from
Neal Schaffer:there. And just like when you do less is more raises the boats of everything else. It's now telling, you know, Google search engines that these things are not important anymore. Please focus on delivering search results that include these other posts that are important, and that do have keyword demand. And that's still get traffic and that still have good user engagement, which is only going to help them, you know, in SEO going forward. So yeah, I mean, they're little things you can do. But they really help you on potentially an exponential scale that I think people forget about. Absolutely. All right. So I want to get into this other thing we were talking about, you wanted to talk about how to create new revenue pockets from your existing content mix, and find a budget you've never had before? Maybe there's two different things. But I want to hand over the microphone. I'm really curious as to what you're gonna say to this. And well,
Joe Pulizzi:I mean, I've been Robert Rosen, I've been talking about this for a long time. And we talk Brian and I talk about in an Epic Content Marketing. I believe that in a lot of cases, the marketing department can be a revenue generator on its own. Like I know, we're always talking about marketing, and we're trying to drive attention and interest in the products and services that are recurrently offering. And absolutely, we're market we're trying to change behavior. But at the same time, when you're building assets, like we're talking about in this entire conversation, you can launch things like events, like Salesforce has a big event called Dreamforce, that at one time, you know, pre COVID, that was worth a billion dollars, they could have sold that sucker for. I mean, you've got things happening like that you've got HubSpot, creating all these assets out there even air electronics that are creating assets that they could actually drive revenue off of, if you look at that whole division that we talked about, for aero electronics, that division is profitable in and of itself. So if you thought about it, say, Oh, my God, could my marketing department actually generate revenue and profit? The answer is, yes. We're just not doing it, because we've never done it before. So you might make the decision and say, Oh, we've got, we've got a newsletter here that we could have non competitive partners actually promote their stuff, and they want to pay us something for the advertiser sponsor, and that the answer's yes, if you want to do that. Microsoft has events all the time that they bring in non competitive partners, and that spend a lot of money with them sponsoring their stuff. And it happens all the time with advertising, as well as Oh, I'm doing an ad and I want it dispense, put some money into this or whatever, it happens all the time. And most businesses, we just don't realize it. So the point is, is that you can do everything a media company can if you decide to do it. But you've got to build an asset first, like we talked about. So what's the thing? Is that a podcast? Is it a newsletter? Is that the website? What is that event? What's the thing that you're building? And could you bring non competitive partners in there to support you and drive new revenue? Absolutely. And the only reason that you're not doing it is because you haven't thought about it before, or you think it's gonna get killed in the organization. So back to our, the beginning of our conversation, started pilot pilot program, build the audience, and then look at all the revenue possibilities, including just oh, I'm gonna drive marketing interest, we're gonna build an audience. Yes. And then how do we make money from that many, many different ways?
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, case in point, one of my fractional cmo clients is a startup in the b2b space, pretty niche space. And they know they want to serve the space, they're not sure of the exact product. And I'm creating a go to market strategy, we're launching April 1, right? But the idea is you first build the audience, you deliver something of value to build the audience. And then it's like, well, how are we going to make money? Well, there's, obviously events is a huge way most of their competitors, that's their sole source of income is events. And it's primarily sponsors. But it can also be in the target for any company. Every customer could also be a potential sponsor, if you think there are other partners, right. And this is their space as well. So, you know, there's events, you know, sponsors ticket fees, there's also obviously annual membership fees to the site, should you have some wild content, or I think a marketing process is a great example, right? educational content, wild content, if you do things like webinars, you know, many events, they're not these annual in person events, that crater economy Expo, but there's still things that, you know, if you build the audience, there are companies that want to get in front of that audience, and therefore, that can generate revenue. So these are real, and then hey, you know, build a podcast, whatever, YouTube channel and these things can augment that. So I think you're being on I think, you know, that exercise for me working with this company that doesn't even know their business model yet. This is like what every creator goes through, right? We you know, let's build the audience. Yeah, maybe we'll get some sponsored deals, maybe we'll get some YouTube, you know, ad share revenue. But at the end of the day, there's so much possibility, why don't companies have the same mindset? It's like, in the age of influencer, why don't companies want to become influencers themselves? Because then more and more companies are gonna want to work with you more and more influencers who want to work with you. Case in point, what we're talking about here,
Joe Pulizzi:I think is more than they just don't think it's a thing like campaign approach, marketing organization, and you build up the thing that has a loyal audience, you probably don't think, Oh, I could sell sponsorships with this. I could spell sell memberships with this. I could sell books and ebooks with this thing. I could do events and webinars with this thing. And then as well as loyalty, as well as driving new products and services that we normally think of as content marketing goals. You can do all the other things as well. So that's the only thing I want to get out not that you should, but that you could. And as a competent marketer, you can make the decision what makes sense for your company.
Neal Schaffer:And now I see the yin and the yang coming together. This is not the creator, economy Expo. Yeah, it's for creators. But it's also what can businesses learn and leverage from the Creator economy. And it's not just leveraging creators either.
Joe Pulizzi:That's what I was surprised. I was actually surprised to most of our attendees, our creators are trying to build their business. But what I was surprised is, we have a lot of marketers and businesses that that want to learn this stuff as well, but also want to understand what creators are doing and partner with creators and a lot of things. So that's why Brian and I decided to put it in an Epic Content Marketing, because I'm like, Oh, my god is this goes, this goes together. And if you are a content marketer, you need to understand what individual content creators are doing as well.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah. And just to give you, you know, we talked about AI giving accessibility, there is always room for new innovation. So I was at Jasper's josper data as generative AI conference in San Francisco, literally a month ago. In fact, my voice is still raspy
Joe Pulizzi:heard, they had like 1000, they were expecting a couple of 100. They had like 1000 people or something like that.
Neal Schaffer:Exactly. It was an amazing event guy sitting next to me. And then as we start talking, he is a basically develops websites for small businesses. And it's always been hard for him to get information out of small businesses as to who's the target persona, what's the key message, all these things he needs to create the website. So he played around with GPT, to the point where he fine tune his prompts, so that he could basically automate all that to create the website. And now he's like, you know, I'm not going to just do this for my business, I'm going to start a new business, just using this technology, where other agencies can use as well. It's that mindset, right? And I think the smaller the business, the more entrepreneurial you are, or, you know, the more you're tight in the creative economy, you get that mindset. But every corporation should try to tap in that mindset as well. I think there's just so much potential, so much room for innovation, even in a space like AI, where they say, Oh, they're coming for your job. Yeah, they're coming for white collar jobs, and it scares a lot of people. But there's also a heck of a lot of innovation that's going to come from it and new jobs, and new companies that are going to come from it as well.
Joe Pulizzi:Well, I hope that every if you work at a larger company, I hope you are giving permission for the people in your organization to create their own audiences. Because you actually would like to have employees that actually have audiences because they're more influential. And yes, they might leave some day. But that's okay. You're creating a better marketing organization, because you have all these little pocket audiences and the people that can sell your products and services the most are your employees. Yeah. So have them build your audience, give them the assets, give them the you know, do the Google role, or 10 or 20% of their time, they can do their own thing, and just say, hey, we would love it. If you we will give you the tools to create your own podcast or your newsletter. That would be lovely. IBM did that whatever years ago when they first got into socials, yes, yes, do all the social stuff. I'd like to see that again, which is content creation.
Neal Schaffer:Yeah, and I've seen a transition just you know, I've done a lot of employee advocacy, trainings and workshops and speeches, you know, back from when it was the first big word like in 2012 or 13. It was really focused on b2b sales, and really using LinkedIn tactically, but more recently when companies reach out to me they just want to get their people on social they want them to become content creators and fans knowing that indirectly it will benefit you know the business which is smart. So it's really interesting how do we how do we foster a network and employee network of content creators and if you can create those training systems for content creators you can start to you know, or for your employees that are content creators, you can now bring in your external influencers to be your trainers you can create this one singular program that matches your employees with external influences brings them all together, hey, why don't you bring in your customers that are nano influencers as well and you can create this singular army right? And now this becomes this asset and whenever you want to do any training or education, whatever, you can hit all these different people this is what I've been talking about. Really, it's evolved from publishing the age of influence but I'm starting to see more and more businesses do this and there's just Joe there's just so much potential out there I guess. If you want to tap into the potential you need to do two things number one, you need to go to crater economy Expo, it's in May, I'm going to try to put I think my affiliate links don't work so I'm gonna put that in the description and the show notes of the podcast but the other is you got to buy Epic Content Marketing get up to speed on that core content marketing get back to the basics, but obviously the basics have changed with AI web three. So Joe well there's been a fantastic conversation where else outside of and hopefully I'll be a crater economy Expo as well. I was there last year hopefully again this year, but where else can people go to you know, I'm supposing they should just opt into the till but you let me know where should we send people Yeah, I mean,
Joe Pulizzi:so yeah, if you if you're interested in this stuff, you want to get it twice a week we have a newsletter called The tilt the tilt.com you can get this information we talk about what's going on in the crater economy and what's going to affect you it's important for marketing in general so I would do that the tilt men I'm at Joe Pulizzi pu li Zi Zi everywhere on social connect with me connect on LinkedIn wherever Twitter and we'll just I'm just out here helping I'm my whole thing is being an evangelist for for content creation for it. individuals as well as content marketers, and I've seen a lot in 20 years, and I'm sure I'll see more. But here I am still doing my thing. So,
Neal Schaffer:indeed, and yeah, it's almost like it was yesterday when we talked three years ago about Corona marketing. But yes, Brian, I hope to meet you in person as well at CX. And well, you know, thank you once again, Joe. We'll keep in touch.
Joe Pulizzi:Sounds good. Thanks for all your support now. Appreciate it.
Neal Schaffer:Thanks, man. Take care. All righty. That was an amazing interview. It validated a lot of what I thought. But we were able just to tap into the genius that is Joe Pulizzi. For a long period of time, and I hope you got as much value out of it that I personally did. I so thank you that introduction before I got to the interview was a little bit on the long side. But there is a lot going on, that I'm generally excited about that I think can help you in many ways, and therefore, I took a little bit longer there. But anyway, hey, this wraps up another episode. Once again, hope to see you on that webinar, April 19. Neal schaffer.com/tailwind Ai, get a seat while they are still available. They are going pretty fast. I hate lion. But anyway, regardless. Thanks again for tuning in. For all of your subscriptions, all your reviews, all your shout outs and social media. You mean a lot to me. We'll talk to you next week. Until then, this is your digital marketing coach Neal Schaffer signing out. You've been listening to your digital marketing coach, questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast dot Neal schaffer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes, and Neal schaffer.com to tap into the 400 Plus blog posts that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's Digital First group coaching membership community if you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on your digital marketing coach.