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July 9, 2020

168: What You Need to Do Today to be Successful on Instagram [Ace the Gram Interview]

168: What You Need to Do Today to be Successful on Instagram [Ace the Gram Interview]

Instagram has become a critical piece of the puzzle for most businesses because of its popularity and high engagement, but not everybody succeeds on the platform. There's a lot of noise about what you should and shouldn't do on Instagram, and some of that advice is either outdated or might lead your account to getting banned.

Let's change that. From the importance of niche branding on Instagram to the critical role that influencers play on Instagram to the unique way in which you should use Instagram for personal branding, Instagram specialists Viv and Tash from Ace the Gram will teach you a thing or two new about the platform that can help improve your Instagram TODAY!

Key Highlights
[02:11] Introduction of Podcast Guest, Viv Conway, and Tasha Meys
[05:57] How Viv and Tash Help Businesses In Acing Instagram and How They Started
[08:38] The Things Viv and Tash Would Do Differently Today Than They Might Have Done Five/Six Years Ago
[10:57] The Way Viv and Tash See Instagram Algorithm Today
[12:41] The Role of Interests in Algorithm
[16:42] Instagram As Personal Magazine and Business
[19:14] The Top 3 Things People Should Focus Efforts On
[21:40] When Do Brands Should Start Using Instagram Influencers?
[22:30] Discoverability Technique
[28:33] The Power of Personal Branding
[29:12] The Mistake Personal Brands Makes
[30:21] How To Get Started In Instagram Marketing?
[32:10] Types of Content You Can Easily Implement
[34:12] The Challenge People Have With Instagram
[37:01] Final Thoughts
[39:41] Connect With Viv and Tasha

Notable Quotes

  • The algorithm Instagram has now is value-based. Instagram does have niches that it puts you into. So the more that you can nail your niche and be really specific and provide value to a specific audience, the more Instagram is going to know who you are, who you want to be shown to. And they'll do that for you. So you do have to be more niche these days.
  • Your niche doesn't have to just be food or fitness, it can be the location you live in, what your target audience is interested in. So you don't have to laser focus on yoga, but you can figure out your niche.
  • I think the first thing is obviously designing your intention. So why you're on Instagram, what you want to get out of it, and then your content strategy will come from that.
  • Don't think of influencers just for content amplification, think of them as superior content creators.
  • Anyone who invests and the personal brand and whatever kick career they earn you become a hidden shoulder above the rest of your industry. And just because you are investing in there and getting your own audience and you do then become you get that freedom and flexibility and autonomy to be in charge of your own career.
  • But at the end of the day, like, if you just remember, okay, why am I here? And what do I want to achieve? And then just take action, because action trumps everything.

Links mentioned in the show:
Ace the Gram Website: https://acethegram.com
Ace the Gram Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ace-the-gram/id1351123456
10 Best Social Media Marketing Podcasts to Listen to: https://nealschaffer.com/best-social-media-marketing-podcasts/

Reference Links for Neal Schaffer
My Website: https://nealschaffer.com/
Learn more about this podcast: https://nealschaffer.com/maximize-your-social-influence-podcast/
The Age of Influence Free Preview: https://nealschaffer.com/age-of-influenc

Transcript

Neal Schaffer:

Are you still struggling to make business impact on Instagram? Are you considering working with influencers and Instagram but you don't know the why and how perhaps as an entrepreneur business owner, you also want to leverage Instagram for your personal brand. Regardless of what angle you want to look at Instagram at today, we have all bases covered in this special interview with VIV and toss from Instagram. Stay tuned. This is the maximize your social influence podcast with Neal Schaffer, where I help sales and marketing professionals, entrepreneurs and small business owners build, leverage and monetize their influence in digital and social media. Hey, everybody, Neal Schaffer here and welcome to episode number 168. Of the maximize your social influence podcast. I love it when those of you that reach out to me, you know, love that podcast episode, the ROI. For me, publishing this podcast is really in all the feedback I get from you. But recently, because I realized that there's various tools out there that can actually help me see the popularity of this podcast in different countries around the world. So it's really exciting to see. And I'm going to give a shout out to some of you listening because I know that although I am based here in the United States, and a lot of people from the United States are listening, it's really awesome to see that this podcast has recently become a top 50 Marketing podcast, which is my category in countries like the United Kingdom, Canada, Mexico, Taiwan, few others, I don't need to go into the to the full details. But I just want to thank you all for listening and making me part of your day as a podcaster. You always wonder if your content resonates with people. And really what it comes down to is the downloads and the chart. So thank you for joining me on this journey. As part of the journey. Today, we're going to take a new and refreshing look at Instagram marketing in 2020 and beyond. And I cannot think of a better guest to have on the show to do this. Then with VIV intosh from Ace the gram. Well, you're going to hear their story. I am a true fan of their podcast. And it's just an honor of all the podcasts that I listened to that I've been listening to religiously. They are the first guests that I've had that I've been able to interview from listening to their voices for 10s If not over 100 episodes, so it was really an honor really gratifying but more than anything when it comes to Instagram marketing and we're going to cover both the Instagram marketing side, the influencer marketing side as well as using Instagram for personal brand new we're going to cover I believe all those key things you need to hear to be successful on Instagram today. And I think you're going to enjoy the refreshing way truly authentic and just common sensical way in which viven talks really openly and freely share their experience and their wisdom. So without further ado, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to the ace the gram Podcast with your guests Instagram specialists VIV and Tosh data that the data that that that Dun dun dun alright today. No, this isn't the ace the gram podcast but we have special guests from the Instagram podcast, Instagram specialist viven Tosh, take it away.

Tasha Meys:

Thanks so much for having us way as stoked to be on your podcast today.

Viv Conway:

Yeah, very happy to be here, Neil. And when we're together, I think you're still on lockdown. But we can be in the same house. So it's quite exciting. At least we don't have to be in three different sort of zoom windows right now.

Neal Schaffer:

It's quite shocking to see two people like one feet next to each other on video. So anyway, I know that no one listening is going to be able to see the video so so let me tell you a little bit about viven Tosh, as some of you who have been listening to this podcast faithfully, I took like a few year break. And then I published an episode. It's like I was never a consumer of podcasts. I sort of did podcasting. This, you know what we call content marketing, just another thing to do. And as I began listening to podcasts, I realized they were total brain food. So I was on a mission to find awesome podcasts. And I always like searching for underdogs. It's like yeah, I know you got there's all these famous people podcast, but what else is out there? So I do a little search for Instagram on Apple podcasts. And one of the podcasts that came up was ace the gram and I with every podcast I start with the very very first episode, and I listened all the way through normally after five episodes. It's like the go no go point. But I kept listening and now you're on season two, I believe right or is this season three? Season Two. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And and it's been really an awesome podcast. I'll put it in the show notes, but I do have this list of the top I always listened to To 10 podcasts at a time, and Instagram still on that list, and I'll put the link to that blog post in, in, in the show notes. But yeah, just really, really awesome this convergence of Instagram marketing, influencer marketing, and personal branding. Just you know, there's a lot of BS out there, I'm sure you would agree about Instagram marketing in general, including other Instagram podcasts. So, you know, you hear people talking about, oh, I grew my followers, and then all of a sudden they have some rogue tool that's sponsoring their podcast isn't okay. Now, I know how you did this right? Or other people. It's like, oh, it's all about hashtags. And then they start talking about email marketing, landing pages, though, okay. So just really appreciate the authenticity of the transparency, and the amazing things you've been able to do and teach. And I know that you only do in person workshops in New Zealand off the fly down for one of those. But that's sort of my intro that Why don't you two, in your own words, sort of describe who you are, what you do, how you help businesses today. And people?

Viv Conway:

Well, I'm very flattered at those compliments, Neil, I think I would hate to think what our very first podcast sound like. But yeah, we are on season two. And we have a lot of fun. And one of our biggest focuses is that we give a lot of value to our listeners. But I suppose the reason we are able to give so much value is sort of our backgrounds and where we came from and how we came to Instagram if you like so, for reference, my voice is birth, and my voice is Tash. And we started Instagram marketing back in 2014. We figured so I personally was building a small sportswear brand. And I was using Instagram to drive the majority of my web traffic and turn those into sales. And then Tosh was doing something slightly different. Yes. So

Tasha Meys:

I was we met at university obviously and uni my last year. Yeah.

Neal Schaffer:

Give me words here uni.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah. Oh, yes. So college. And we were both Yeah, doing food science. And we were spending a lot of time talking about Instagram, because obviously, it was using it for her brand. And I was figuring out how I could stand out from the crowd when I was going to apply for jobs the next year. And I thought, well, I've got, you know, I've always been passionate about photography. And I'm really passionate about these different healthy recipe innovations that are making. I'm watching all these people do this online. And they really no different to me. So I thought, Okay, I'm going to take the plunge and I'm going to start posting on tastefully Tosh, which is my creative page now, and to see where that goes and sort of try some of these trial and error, growth strategies and community finding tools that VIV and I were discussing in food science. So yeah, gradually, we both grew to the point where people were asking us how we were doing it so that they wanted help for their own brands or personal brands. And from there. Yeah, we just as the game evolved, and now we have clients from all over the world, which is amazing.

Neal Schaffer:

So food science is where you started. Correct. Okay, so you have sort of this natural combination. Toss you were talking about Instagram for personal branding? Viv, you had your own sporting clothes. Yeah, food photography. These are the things that just naturally sell on Instagram, don't they?

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, we were pretty lucky at the beginning was the niches we chose because it was typically, you know, when we started that many years ago, there was like, sort of luxury pages of travel, there were photo pages. And there were like bright and exciting, like activewear or sporty kind of pages. And there are a couple of other niches but though we did fit into those main niches, which really worked in our favor,

Neal Schaffer:

awesome. So now it's 2020. And like every other social network, Instagram has matured, there's more competition, although it's still compared to any other social network still gives you the most engagement in general, right, on average. So for those that are either starting out, or I mean, I guess the question is, what would you do differently today than you might have done five or six years ago, Visa Vee Instagram?

Viv Conway:

Yeah, I love that question. And I think the first you know, when we speak to anyone that whether it's a client or someone that's just asking for a little bit of help the off the wheel, it always comes back to why are you on Instagram. So I think, six years ago, we could kind of be a little bit, you know, a little trial and error and whatever. And now you've got to be so focused on okay, what am I here for? Am I trying to build a personal brand and share my message? And I try? Am I here to sell products? Like how am I going to get these people off the platform into my website? So what is your overall goal, I suppose? And then from there, how am I going to keep people interested? What's the value that I have to provide to them to keep them entertained? To keep them informed to keep them educated? And then what's that? What's that whole sort of customer journey? So I suppose, you know, from Instagram, what does that look like? But But what's after that? So I know you mentioned lead, PR and landing pages and so on a little bit earlier, but looking at our marketing mix, if you will, whether it is a personal brand, or for a business and just understanding how that all fits into one. Yeah. And

Tasha Meys:

I think as well on top of that, six years ago, five years ago, you could quite easily post a variety of things. And that would be okay, because the way the algorithm worked was it was chronological. So if you went in your feed it was five seconds ago, five minutes ago, five hours ago as you scroll through, so you could post a variety of things and that wouldn't affect how you were shown to people. Whereas with the algorithm Have them now, which is value based. Instagram does have niches that it puts you into. So the more that you can nail your niche and be really specific and provide value to a really specific audience, the more Instagram is going to know who you are, what you're about who you want to be shown to. And they'll do that for you. So you do have to be more niche these days.

Neal Schaffer:

So that's interesting. So I know like your last few podcast episodes, you've been talking about niche niche, niche niche in itself. And all of us in you know, everywhere in the world, like if you're an entrepreneur, social media got to pick a niche. But the way you describe the Instagram algorithm working, that it's actually classifying your profile, according to a niche is really interesting. So what you're saying is, when you're posting all sorts of different types of imagery and different types of hashtags, the algorithm then doesn't know how to classify you. And therefore, generally speaking, you're not going to get the type of impressions you would get, if you're represented by a singular niche. Is that the way you see the algorithm today? Yeah, so

Viv Conway:

I suppose the way that we look at it is, and I'm not sure if you've ever used Facebook ads, or if any of your listeners have used Facebook ads. And if you target by interest, you can go in and you can click like, okay, you can click fitness, but then a sub nature of that might be like bodybuilding, or yoga. So if we think about the Instagram algorithm has a machine, we kind of like it, like to think about it as if it's using that same kind of interest based targeting if you like, or it might be location. So in order for that machine to figure out where you fit in to either of those sub niches or locations, it can only do that by what you tell it in order to help the machine understand we want to think about, okay, well, what hashtags? Am I using? What I'm actually posting on my photos? Who am I engaging with? Who am I following? What people are following me? What a bit interests? So all, everything we do on Instagram has to reflect where we want to be Sharlyn. So if I'm, you know, if I've got a client that's in the dance realm, I'm not going to go and search for competitors have a, you know, tracking company on that account? Because that's going to confuse the algorithm, and they're going to go Hold on a second, what are you interested in? And it's just important to think about that, I think. And then yeah, imagery has to reflect that as well.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah. And I think a note about that, as, when we're smaller that these are the things we have to think about when we have a smaller account. If you look at the Kylie Jenner's in the conditions of the world, they can post whatever they like, because they already have that massive audience. And I think a lot of people starting out, look at those examples and think, Oh, well, you know, Kylie posts, X, Y, Zed, so I can post whatever I like. And she's really big. But the difference is, it is like starting a business, you don't start a business and have tracking products and plant products and cleaning products. Yeah. So you, you start with a really specific offering and product. And then as you grow, and as an audience base grows, then you can diversify. And it's the same thing on Instagram.

Neal Schaffer:

So based on that, let me ask you two additional questions. So are you saying that when the way that Facebook ads targeting works, that those interests is not just represented by your content, but also the content that you as a profile engage with? Who you follow what content you'd like? Are you saying that that also, the more niche, not only your content is, but your actions are? The better representation? You're going to get in the algorithm? Is that sort of your understanding?

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, because if we think about it, like, you know, we've got to speak Instagrams language to get them to do what we want. So, you know, Instagram doesn't favor you over me over anyone else. It just takes into account the data that it can read. And the data that it can read is what we can give it by, and the more consistent we can be with that nation, those actions and all representing the same thing that we want them to know. And that's the best chance we can have to make them do what we want them to do for us.

Viv Conway:

And I suppose, like being interested in food ourselves, I like to look at often like local local eateries is like an easy thing, or an example to think of. So if you're a local cafe, you're interacting with a lot of local people, you're using food hashtags, you're using location tags at the same area, it becomes really easy for Instagram to figure out, okay, cool, they post a lot of food there in this area, people from this area like them and engage with them. And people from this area also probably like other accounts in that area. So it's really obvious that they're in one area, but other also food. Do you know what I mean? So it becomes very clear.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, because I think people do get, you know, stressed when we tell them this, because they're like, Ah, I don't know what my niche is. So I don't know if I'm specific enough for what that is. But your niche can be such a doesn't have to just be food or fitness, it can be the location that you live in, because that's where your audiences, it can be, what your target audience is interested in that type of thing. So you don't have to, you know, laser focus on yoga, but you can figure out your niche.

Neal Schaffer:

So what then is the role? So obviously, you want to get your followers to engage with you as well. So I suppose we're looking at two different things, right, the the hashtag impressions you get above and beyond your followers, and then engagement from your followers. So that also, I'm assuming is still an important part of the algorithm that your followers are going to are first going to see your content and engage with that. And that also helps as well. Right. So you still need a balance of both? I said, yeah,

Tasha Meys:

yeah, definitely. Yeah. We want to provide value to those people that we already have on board. So even little tips of if they if you're, if your audience is commenting on to page one of your priority should always be to reply to them or if they deem your reply to your stories always make an effort because that will make them come back.

Neal Schaffer:

Gotcha. Okay, so, so we've talked about sort of, if you're a brand or if you're a personal brand that that niche, and I've seen it, you know, I have never niched down, that's sort of my bad thing. I started like 10 years ago with a niche, and then I sort of niche up just because I got bored with that niche. But I totally see it because I have had certain images or videos go relatively viral, but they don't convert into follows. So they'll get the impressions I get alike, but then not the and that's a real clear sign that everything has to be aligned. Right? Did you see that a lot with your clients?

Viv Conway:

Yeah, totally. Like, if you hit a if you had an Instagram account and one nation, then you Yeah, like you say, posted something that went viral. If your, if the rest of your account was super relevant in your head, then all those people clicking over, they stopped, they love what you're offering, and then the chances of them continuing to follow you and potentially then converting to wherever else you wanted to push them a very high, but like you say, yeah, if you, if you posting a little bit of everything, and then it's not really very clear, um, to a person that might have been just interested in that one thing that you posted, and it's not being like, backed up by that, that's when it makes it harder to convert people. Yeah, and

Tasha Meys:

I think as a business, you know, or personal brand, you can become a specialist in something and push that as a more niched representation of the broader things that you then do. So, you know, as Instagram specialists, that's always been really good for us, because it gets our foot in the door as specialists to talk to people. And then they often need more than that. And we can provide that it's sort of like, you know, Apple with the iPhone, that iPhone will get people on the door, but then they do all these other things. So they they market the iPhone, and they make the iPhone, like what people think of when they think of them.

Neal Schaffer:

Right, right. Okay. So that really, I think, you know, compared to other social networks, Instagram becomes so strategic, because of that focus. And its relationship with the algorithm and expectations of the user, have always thought, Well, I haven't always stopped, but it was actually a blogger of mine, who like blogging five years ago, what you can learn about Instagram, from magazines, and it almost sounds like Instagram is trying to become this personal magazine, you have people you follow. But it's always trying to expose you to that content around your interest. So if you as a business can play into that, that's going to be your strength.

Viv Conway:

Yeah, I like that analogy. And I think, at the end of the day, if we think about Instagram as a business itself, Instagram wants to keep its users on the platform for as long as possible. So if it thinks, Okay, Tasha is interested in food, if I can show TASH as many food pictures and like food, things that she's into, then I'll keep her on the app for longer, and I can show her more ads. And that's revenue for me as Instagram. So when we, when we're the Food account that wants to be shown to other foodies, that's why our actions are so important, because Instagram wants to show us to people, you know, like you say, with the magazine, they want to expose us to more people that may be interested in our content, we've just got to be laser focused. So it knows what we are. So it can show us.

Neal Schaffer:

And it sounds like the difference compared to other networks, like a Facebook or even like a LinkedIn is those networks still focus on showing you content from your connections or friends. Whereas maybe because the supply demand, there just aren't that many as many content creators and Instagram because it's a little bit harder to publish a photo than to just say something that there's always more content to consume. And therefore, what you see in your feed is often going to go above and beyond who you follow.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, definitely. And I think user behavior and the shifts in user behavior, Instagrams always been quite good at reading those, and then changing and innovating to reflect what people are interested in. Like when, you know, Instagram was getting to unattainable on the feed, and people were starting to watch Snapchat stories. And Instagram was thought, okay, that's what people want. We're gonna do Instagram stories. And now that's like a cool way that people interact with the platform. And then machine learning is getting more sophisticated to show you relevant things that you want to see, because you look at the likes of TiC tock and how powerful a really good machine learning platform can be, and how addictive that is. So Instagram is just trying to be more and more addictive in a way. So as

Neal Schaffer:

a brand, there are obviously a few different things you can do with Instagram. So you have igtv of stories, you have photo video, you have things like hashtag, you have things like making sure your you know, your whole content strategy. If you were to prioritize, and obviously engagement with your own community and then engaging outside of your community. If you were to sort of prioritize those things for the listeners of the top three things, they should really focus their efforts on I'm assuming that whole niche content, I mean, that that has to be first. But outside of that, where should they be focusing on today? If they're listening to this,

Tasha Meys:

I think there's a few steps to it. So I think the first thing is obviously designing your intention. So why you're on Instagram, what you want to get out of it, and then your content strategy will come from that. And then second is investing in the content that provides that value that will attract your target audience. We see time and time again, you know, premium brands who have great products and invest all this time into research and development and other forms of marketing. And what they don't realize is that most people's first touch point with their brand is their Instagram presence or their online presence. And if you don't invest In good quality content than that's the direct idea of your brand that they will have in their mind. So if you've got yet in turn taking random photos, then that doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of your brand that you want. So we are big fans of people that invest in the content. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's always going to be super aesthetic. If your value is in humor, or it's an education or it's in a different area to aesthetic, then that's still an area that you're investing in, you want that what your value has to be reflected within that content. And then third becomes discoverability techniques. So we've optimized our profile so that when people come over, they'll stick. And the third is you're getting out in front of those people. So starting to use those functions. Instagram gives us access to like hashtags like location tags, like doing giveaways, like starting to do influence marketing, and those more sophisticated discoverability techniques.

Neal Schaffer:

Gotcha. All Make Sense. All very logical. So let's shift gears a little bit to you just mentioned influencer marketing. And you know, I think 80% up till recently 80% of influencer marketing budgets were going to Instagram. And I've always been a believer that brands really struggle with creating the type of content that Instagram requires not a blatant advertisement, but true lifestyle, content that that people can really relate to. So based on that, my there's a lot of others that say, oh, you know, you need to be more human with your brand, what have you. But I think it's really hard for brands to be human. So I've always opted with the approach that why don't you just obviously, there's user generated content if people are talking about your brand, which is great, but obviously leveraging influencers as really superior content creators, when it comes on Instagram, what would be your advice? At what point should brands just immediately start working with influencers? Should 100% of the content be outsourced to influencers? And I know that if you've worked with a lot of brands, you know, doing that, both creating content in the back, as well as working with influencers? So I know, there's all sorts of varieties here. There's no one sort of answer. But what is sort of your view on that? Does it make sense for businesses and why?

Viv Conway:

Yeah, absolutely. I think like you saying, yeah, there's, there's a number of reasons why you would use an influencer. So we might say, or actually, okay, the brand we're working with really needs content. They don't have a lot of budget, but they do have a really valuable product, maybe they've got wine. And we can see this wine out to like lots of different influences, if you like, maybe they've got smaller followings, but they take really great photos. And we can use influences. For content, you know, for no other reason, when we're not looking for hundreds of 1000s of followers or anything like that, we just actually want content and that's the value exchange there. It may then also be that hey, actually, we're going to use some of those discoverability techniques. And we want to engage with influencers to run some giveaways so that when we only have 400 followers ourselves, if we were to run a giveaway, we might only get 200 entries, but if we then use an influencer that has 100,000 followers, we're all of a sudden being put in front of a target audience that we know is similar to their own and who we want to target in the future. We've created a giveaway that's appealing to our target audience. And in doing so we then bring followers back to our own account. It may even be another case of okay well I just want to get heaps of awareness out there maybe I've got a really low cost product that I can send to lots of different people I think we've seen the likes of Elia skincare over and Ozzy they did 7 million in the first year turnover because they were sending out 600 facemask a day like low cost products, but for them massive brand awareness. So back to that idea of okay, I need to build up as many touch points as I can with my audience. And it's not just Okay, send it to one influencer and see how many dollars I get back. It's like I'm gonna send 600 out. And over time that creates like a snowball effect of awareness and in sales.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, because I think people's brands mindsets are slowly changing, but they don't need to change when it comes to what they think about when they think about influencer marketing, because they typically think of cool, we're gonna send it to one person with 60,000 followers, and we're all my sales on burned by influence marketing. This is, you know, horrific this is we hate influences. But instead of thinking that it's you've got to think of all those different touch points that play into it, you've got to think of, you know, when you bought something the last time you bought it, what what all those interactions you had with the brand you might have seen, you might have seen actually a billboard, you might have seen a Facebook ad, you might have seen an influencer post about it, and then by the time you saw it on your Instagram feed come up, that would be the final touch point. So it's like marketing 101 There's so many different touch points that come into it. And also I really like how brands are shifting their mindset around the content side of things because so many influences now are like their own Creative Studios. So the opportunity for brands to get a really contextual amazing user experience shot of the product is said now you know it's never really been we've never had access to that before. So if you think about maybe you know a thermos or something, then yes, a brand can either invest in studio style shoot or a you know, pay so much money to get a creative studio to go and shoot that on a road trip. Instead you can send that to an influencer and figure out either a payment structure or a product structure. And then you get suddenly these you know, beautiful like New Zealand wrote, even photos that are shot beautifully. And that's, and that's an image you would never get access to before of the likes of Instagram.

Viv Conway:

And I think we've seen this particularly demonstrated during lockdown, where all of a sudden, you've got people that don't have access to studios, you don't have access to the photographers, you normally would. But all of a sudden, you've got these influencers who have always worked from home have setups that they normally use for their different product shots or whatever they're doing. And so all of a sudden, we've got all these little mini home studios, and you know, the Postal Service is still working. So it's like it's same bit of a change. But I've noticed that especially during these times,

Tasha Meys:

yeah. And I think it's brands just think as well, when you're working with an influencer, you're also getting that content asset. So if you don't get necessarily get, you know, 10 sales, then you've also got this image that you didn't have before that this person's like spent time and energy and like their experience and send it to you. So you are paying for more than just exposure.

Neal Schaffer:

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that I've been talking a lot about here is that don't think of influencers just for content amplification, think of them as superior content creators, right. And it's funny, because sometimes you go on the feed, you'll see people are just a few 100 followers, but the content is magnificent. So there's a lot of people that brands can be working with, especially when you talk at the micro nano level. And yeah, they can work remotely. Now. COVID doesn't stop them. And they're good at what they do. And you know, when I spoke recently at Social Media Marketing World, I brought up the case study from Have you heard of Pixley Pixley Pixley. So there's, there's a bunch of like influencer tools out there. But Pixley has always been about ship your product and pick from like user generated content, or don't even ship your product pic from user generated content that you can license, and then use wherever you want. So they had some really compelling case studies of companies that were using that user generated content, not just for their organic, social, and not just for their paid social, which converts better, but even like on checkout pages on their website, and that content would always convert better than your standard stock photos of the product. So yeah, as you say, Those really are assets, and they can be used anywhere, not just on social media, assuming the content contract in place. So I'm hoping that more and more brands really catch on to that fact, and stop wasting money on on photos. I mean, I've had, you probably had the same thing, but I've had brands reach out to me where the advertising department will still creating the content for Instagram. And you know, the social media manager was like, I can't publish this content, it's gonna look like an ad on Instagram, even though it's organic. So that's really the challenge and influencers help fill that gap. Right.

Tasha Meys:

Definitely. Yeah. And also a tip is, if you don't listen, a big influencer, you know, say, Richard Branson is holding your product, then repurpose that everywhere use that as your ad copy, use that as your ad, you know, cut that every, every couple of months, put that on your Instagram feed, use it as so you can repurpose that and get more out of that image, then that initial post that they did,

Neal Schaffer:

and that does happen, one of my clients is a hair color company, and Huda Beauty just happened to post their product and they've never had a chip. So it does happen, especially if you have a good product, obviously. Let's now shift gears once more. So I said, we're going to talk about three things. Today. We have the Instagram marketing site for business with influencer marketing site. And then the personal branding, I know that this is something you're really passionate about, you recently launched a new product around it. And I think that a lot of people listening are both interested in their brand as well as becoming more influential themselves, especially on Instagram. So based on everything we talked about, if you are a brand, I'm assuming that really the same things that we talked about apply, but because you're a person, there's a lot more you can do from a relationship and engagement perspective, correct?

Tasha Meys:

Definitely. Yeah, the power of personal branding these days is just going to become more and more of an investment in your career. And in your future. We're seeing actors get jobs, the ones with audiences, we're seeing authors, the ones with the audiences on Instagram are getting the book deals. We're seeing athletes get the best sponsorships or invest on their personal brand. Anyone who invests and the personal brand and whatever kick Korea they earn your become a hidden shoulders above the rest of your industry. And just because you are investing in there and getting your own audience and you do then become you get that freedom and flexibility and autonomy to be in charge of your own career. But yes to your question, the, the concepts are exactly the same. But the mistake that we see personal brands make is not not acknowledging that they are a personal brand. So when you are when you do decide who you are as a personal brand, figuring out your brand values, figuring out what your content pillars are being quite strategic about exactly who you are as a brand, just like you would if you're developing, you know a style guide and a brand book for a brand. And you do that with your own values and your own your own person. And that's going to be the easiest way to stay really consistent and figure out what products to then work with, what directions you would hit in the valleys of your audience and everything else becomes clearer when you do those exercises. So I highly recommend like what you said at the beginning, people have to act more like brands and brands have to act more like people on Instagram to sort stand out. So yeah, go through those exercises.

Neal Schaffer:

But I assume the challenge, then, you know, businesses are somewhat bound by their audience they serve in the products they have, but people are not bound by anything, right? You see, people just go all over the place of their Instagram posting, which, which makes it very hard to build that brand. But that whole, I mean, how do you become if you're a photographer? This is a no brainer, right? But if you're not a natural content creator, how can you go about like getting started on this Instagram journey?

Viv Conway:

Well, I would probably fall into the space of like, not being so good at creating content. And also being someone that was like very reluctant to personal brand at the start, you know, if it was up to me, I would, you know, wouldn't have my face on anything. But it's been a big push from Tasha, it's been a very, it's been the best move that we did face the ground. So I think what sort of happens, and when you're trying to create that content, the best personal brands that we see are those that are authentic. So even though you may not have the best camera, maybe you can write a bit of caption, like, how can you draw people and it comes back to that value? It's sort of like, if you're not going to have that aesthetic feed, then we're asked is your value going to be? Is it going to be in the humor? Is it going to be in your authentic stories? Like, where do you fit in? Because that's where that's where the beauty of it lies?

Tasha Meys:

Yeah. And a way to figure out this is think, okay, as a person, what are you most passionate about? So what transformation Do you want to see in the world? What, what thing? Are you? What message are you trying to get across? What Where does your core story fit into that. And then from there, figure out your values as a person. So whether you value freedom, and creating financial freedom for people so that they can work from anywhere and do what you've what's created the most beautiful moments in your life, or you figure out those key like, you know, four or five values that you as a person have, and that you want to get out and help other people. And then from there, that's when you can create that content pillar from that. It's like, okay, cool. I'm really passionate about self bodied love. And then how can I do that. So maybe I'm going to, you know, invest in a kind of photoshoot that shows my journey, or maybe I'm going to do, like inspiring Canva quotes about body image. And so you figure out the values first, and then you can create content pillars for those values.

Neal Schaffer:

So you mentioned two very, very common tactics that Canva quotes, or the photoshoots? And are there any other, like really easy to understand, easy to implement types of topics like those where you can like batch create content that you recommend?

Tasha Meys:

Yeah. So I think, you know, even like, obviously, it comes back to what your value is and what your personal brand is. And then that content will determine be determined by

Viv Conway:

that. And even like as an example, so you might better create content. But we know people that have personal brands, and they take their own photos, and they're not massively amazing, but they have a copywriter, like they have a ghostwriter. So say I want to talk about this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they'll write the caption for them. So they'll just take your random selfie, or they'll do something, you know, they might be out and about with a client or something. And that can be a really candid photo, but the copy itself becomes valuable, because they've hired someone to do it for them, because it's not a strong point either. And then that becomes really massive value for the audience that people want to follow along and see insight to Yeah, an

Tasha Meys:

example would be we know a, like entrepreneur, personal brand, who has a really great Instagram account. And she thought, Okay, well, I'm not a content creator, how am I going to do this. And so she gets, she's got about three content pillars, the first content pillar is actually the great stock photos that you can get for free these days. So like Unsplash, or pixel, or whatever, you can get those and that might be like, you know, a laptop image or a remote working image or something like that. And then the second content pillar is that she just goes and does one day a month of with a photographer and gets a image bank that she can draw from. And then the third is images and videos as she's out and about. So if she's at a conference, you'll just do a little video, and then she'll post that. And that's a really clear way that she can have a great aesthetic and get across her value. But without being like, Oh, I'm not a content creator.

Neal Schaffer:

What's really interesting is that I think when Instagram just started, it was all about the visual. And more and more as you suggest, we talk about the caption, to the point where I know someone is actually writing a book about using Instagram as a blogging platform where the blog post right, which you're sort of handing out as well. So in that scenario you gave me of that entrepreneur, the visuals are, I guess you could say they're like visual content buckets. But at the end of the day, the visuals are just talking points for these mini blog posts that become the captions correct. So the visual is not tied to the caption. And I think that's the struggle that a lot of people have with Instagram, is they try to tie to do together as brands do as well. And it doesn't, it becomes really challenging.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, definitely. I think the best engagement we're seeing as people that do bring that journey and that story through their captions, and then people get really invested in that and comment. And then if you've got a if you've got a content bank that you can draw from then if you've got something to say that day, and you're really passionate about, you know, the next step in your journey of sharing that, and then you just pull an image from your content bank that is relevant to it. And then yeah, it is this flipping a bit. So it used to be image first, what can we write about this and now sort of, we're bringing that that common thread in that And that value through and then what image can go with that.

Neal Schaffer:

Because if you think about the way that algorithms work, they also look at time spent on profile. So just like with carousel photos tend to get more engagement, the longer caption, that's what, what a lot of people here are saying. I don't know if you see the same there, but it makes a lot of sense, right? Yeah,

Viv Conway:

I think we've definitely seen a massive shift. You know, if you even look at five years ago of like, happy Monday, you know, or like, who's having a good day, like, unless you're Kylie Jenner, like, no one, really, you know, no one really engages with it anymore. But like you say, I like the idea of using it as a blog post, because you're so right, that we've seen that value shift change, even from like, everyone's personal everyday accounts, no longer just have, you know, two to three words, they've got a little bit more substance to them.

Tasha Meys:

And we say the same thing in stories, the people that do, you know, cover their whole day and have dots at the top of their screen, that scares away a lot of people, but they have a core audience. And that audience becomes more valuable than any audience because they're the ones that tune in each day, and are used to that and waiting for that and watch every single segment. And then obviously, that creates such a deeper connection with that person. And those are the people that, you know, are selling out their new product launches, because they have such an engaged audience.

Neal Schaffer:

And that's time I'm profile once again, going through all those stories. That's a minute, two minutes.

Viv Conway:

That's huge, right? 100%? Yeah.

Neal Schaffer:

So I mean, you're already hinting that obviously, it's not the number of followers, it's number of engagements and number of those core followers that can drive everything else. This is, I guess, the first time that I've ever talked about this, and this is really good information for those that have really struggled by creating the content is to really separate the visual and the caption, any final thoughts for people that want to I know that we've covered a lot today, and I'm trying to cover for what I just forgot, if I was gonna ask you. Any final thoughts of when you knew you were going to be on this podcast. So the information you wanted to share with business owners, entrepreneurs, marketers, that are listening visibly Instagram marketing, influencer, marketing, Instagram, or personal branding, Instagram, anything that was critical that we didn't cover?

Viv Conway:

I think above everything else, like Tasha and I can get really in detail on everything that you can do on Instagram, we can pick apart anything and say, like, Oh, I wonder how they're doing this? Or maybe they could do that better. But at the end of the day, like, if you just remember, okay, why am I here? And what do I want to achieve? And then just take action, because action trumps everything, right? Like you could do like the most perfect pose, you know, everyone knows that imperfect action is better than no action, right? And it's the same on Instagram. So I think sometimes people can. And we can like, early on, like we have people messaging like, do you think these three hashtags are right? Or am I supposed to be using 28 or 30 hashtags, and it's like, just do something. And the more posts you do, the more hours you're going to get on your stuff. And the more you know, the more movements going to happen. So I think that would be the underlying theme. For anything that we come out with is so low, we can be quite full on above everything, just take action. And that's

Neal Schaffer:

just a way of what now remember, what I wanted to ask you about that was perfect. You teed it up perfectly, was about consistency. Obviously, if you're consistent, that's awesome. If you're able to show up every day, that's awesome. But not everybody has that habit of batching, or ideas? or what have you. Is there. I mean, when you work with clients, I'm assuming you recommend frequency of like daily, but what is your for those that can't do it as frequently? What is sort of your take on that? If you don't, if you don't do it at least once a week, you know, the algorithm is gonna forget about you. What would you say about that? Yeah, we

Tasha Meys:

often say to people, your grid, now, the algorithm doesn't stress out as much as it used to if you don't post on your grid as frequently. But we say that you just want to post as often as you have high quality value driven content for so if that is every day, then that's amazing. If you have like a meme page, then and that's five times a day, then that's amazing. If that's two times a week, then do that. And do that instead of being like, Oh, what am I going to post and like taking a photo of whatever has happening that day that doesn't align with anything or give any value. So we definitely recommend you know, as frequently as you can, but with in mind of always, always putting out quality. But the flip side of that is stories. So stories, quantity is key. And you know, top of screen top of mind, have those as frequently as possible. And those are amazing. Because once you start to integrate that into your routine, it's not like posting on your grid. It doesn't have to be curated, it doesn't have to be branded, it doesn't have to be beautiful finished portfolio, it is on the fly as the behind the scenes of your brand. So if you are struggling, then just start to story more frequently.

Neal Schaffer:

Awesome advice. So obviously, they've been touched from the ether Graham podcast, but in their own words, and I know that you I don't even know if the waiting list is still open for that the personal branding course. But please tell the audience where they can find you how they can work with you. Everything they can do with you go for it.

Viv Conway:

Awesome. So I suppose like you said, Neil, our podcast is called Aisa gram podcast. And if you've got any inquiries, just flip them through to Hello at Eisah graham.com. That's our email. Yeah,

Tasha Meys:

and we are actually I know you mentioned the beginning that we do in person workshops in New Zealand, but due to COVID We've actually opened it up to the world because we're doing them online now. So our next strand training workshop, which is comprehensively in detail, or the full strategy that you will need from, you know, we touched on aspects of it today. So that'll be either in the first week of August or the first week of September. But if you go to dub dub dub.instagram.com, they will keep that updated with details.

Neal Schaffer:

I had to hear that dub dub dub. Thank you. And I heard

Tasha Meys:

you don't even need to say that anymore. I didn't say I suck it up. But I'm like, I'm like 90s person.

Neal Schaffer:

Yeah. And I assume that you're the business coach that's helped you, like maximize your profits, three axes. Also, I've always wondered why you never did those remotely. And maybe I should take this opportunity to ask you, I guess business must be so good for you New Zealand that you never really had to do it remotely? Correct?

Tasha Meys:

Yeah. And I do feel like there's an aspect of Kiwis being more old school, and that a lot of the medium businesses just weren't used to doing online trainings. And they just really wanted that in person training. And they would, they would wait until we set a date for it. We'd be like, yeah, we're doing an online one. And they're like, No, we're gonna wait until even if it's in two years time, we're gonna wait to an in person when we have now opened up to the world.

Neal Schaffer:

That's right. I do a lot of business in Japan. And they're like, they never did webinars that was that, you know, and now they have to so all of a sudden, anyone and everyone, I'm like, what happened? Like you, you flip the switch on online training, and now everybody does it. So that's it, though, cuz here, it's very standard. As you can imagine,

Tasha Meys:

Todd lay. And I think as well, I've noticed KYC have a very DIY editor like they're amazing at, you know, mucking in and kind of figuring out themselves. And that's what I figured with their, you know, the personal branding course, even though my audience is mostly kiwi, it's often Americans that buy and invest in that coaching and taking things to the next level, because they are so willing to say, I need to help him that so I'm going to talk to an expert.

Neal Schaffer:

Yeah, definitely. Cool. It's Hello, data, gram comm. instagram.com is where they can access that online workshop coming up. And this will be published before then. So if you're listening, you got to take that. And when you do workshops in person, or they like full day, like eight hours of Instagram, it seems like you have enough content to cover that.

Viv Conway:

I know, right? There are only three hours and I do love it. I love it in person workshops, because we split them into beginners and advanced courses. So often our beginners, we need to help them like connect to the Wi Fi at the beginning of the session, you know, like it's real hands on, it just means everyone gets the most out of it sometimes.

Tasha Meys:

Yeah, and that's a we also do the online versions of both of those. So if you are listening and you, you haven't actually embraced Instagram yet. And you actually want to know just like how the story how the functions work, how to utilize it, how to use it, then beginners is great for you. But if you are already using it, but you just want to take it to the next level and reach all those people and start converting at a higher rate, then the advanced is the best

Neal Schaffer:

for everyone listening. Hopefully, if you've listened to other people, even some people you might call an Instagram expert talk about Instagram, hopefully you see how refreshing and authentic and just really common sense good, practical, actionable advice that viven toss gives. So I hope that if you're looking for a course, that's the one to take. So thank you so much for being on the podcast, I was really excited. I'm sorry, I don't have a glass of wine. Oh, and I'm gonna take a selfie at the end too. But I promise you I'd have a glass of wine. But at 3pm My wife was just not happy about that. So but you're the first like podcast actually listened to like every week that I've actually had a guest on mine. So it's very special. Really, thank you for that. Hope we can keep in touch just all the best for the to you. And hey, everyone listening. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll be back again next week. viven toss. Thanks.

Tasha Meys:

Thank you so much for having us. All right.

Neal Schaffer:

I hope you thoroughly enjoyed that podcast. And now you have a lot more clarity as to what you can and should be doing on Instagram. I know it sort of made me change my own way of thinking about Instagram. So lots of work to do. All right. Well, thank you for listening to another episode, as I began this podcast, I really could not do it without your feedback, whether it is a download, or going out of your way, if this brought you any value to just leave a simple review and comment wherever you listen to this podcast. I recently had a gentleman from India reach out to me, he does not have any Apple devices. He was listening to this podcast on my website, Neal Schaffer calm and I do have a new podcast page, which I'll put in the show notes, which is allows you to actually listen to a number of episodes, my latest 25 as well as my most popular 25 episodes before those directly from a browser on a smartphone or on a PC or tablet. And he was wondering, Well, where do I write the review if I'm listening on your website, so there are various podcast apps out there if you can't do it on Apple and Google, Stitcher calm and I'll put this in the show notes STI te ch er comm is a popular site where you can go in and review not just my podcast, but other people's podcasts that you want to review because you like them and you feel that they add value. And trust me when I say that when you review a podcast I believe that every podcaster really looks at those reviews and is really grateful. Without in mind I want to thank AJ Wilcox AJ was a guest of mine. We talked about LinkedIn ads. I'm going to make sure that I put his information in the show notes. That episode, he wrote Neil is the man for the job. When the foremost thought leader in enterprise social media hosts a podcast, I listen. I can't think of anyone I'd rather have leading the charge. Listen up, you won't regret it. Thank you so much. AJ, you are the man. And if you want to know more about LinkedIn ads, AJ is your man. So I'll put the link in the show notes. But hey, really thank you again for listening. And wherever you are in the world, make it a great because we're still on lockdown here in the United States virtual Day. Bye Bye, everybody.